"Schedule Creep"

[Mike F]

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task, the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[John]

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task, the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Mike F,
Most of my work has been with fixed duration type tasks and I always
hated that stupid error message because it does not have a "cancel"
option. That meant I had let Project change the duration and then I had
to back it out and take a different approach to maintain my original
fixed duration.

I'm not real sure why Project was developed that way but whether you
chose Fixed Duration, Fixed Units or Fixed Work, those attributes only
really hold when a task is initially set up. As you found out, Project
abandons the "fixed" type declaration and will use other priorities once
the task is started. The calculation algorithms in Project take the
approach that if real resources perform real work then those become the
determining factors for actual duration. For example, let's say you have
a one day "fixed duration" task with a single resource assigned 100%.
Fine and good, everybody's happy. However, if you determine that after
the task is started it is really going to take 12 hours, then the
duration cannot be 1 day (i.e. 8 working hours). So Project is going to
say, "ok, something has got to give and it has to be the duration. I
just can't hold it fixed." I know, Project doesn't really talk to you
but that's probably what it would say if it did.

However, with our schedules we did not use actual work in Project, so we
needed to keep our tasks as Fixed Duration (our earned value metrics
were handled by another application apart from Project and Project was
only used for developing the schedule, setting a baseline, and tracking
progress via % Complete). Granted, a somewhat basterdized system, but
the error message with no "cancel" option was a real pain in the ass.

Ok, so what can you do. One obvious approach is to create a new task to
handle each added meeting requirement. You will effectively do what
Project wants but under your own control, not that of Project's
not-so-fixed algorithm. And yeah, it means you cannot have a single task
for all meetings, but sometimes you gotta go with the flow.

Another approach lies in how you status the task. The following approach
might work for you. Go ahead and set up the fixed duration general
meeting task. However, instead of using the Resource Name Form to record
actual work and new work, use the Resource Usage view. When the task is
first laid out you will see the hours spread across the full duration
for each resource. If you record Actual Work for each day, the Work
hours will change accordingly. If you then add more hours to the Actual
Work timescaled values, you will see the work change but the duration
will remain at the original fixed value. Of course, it you try to fill
the Actual Work field beyond the Finish date, you will get the error
message, as well you should.

Hopefully this will help and maybe some someone else will have more
ideas.

John
Project MVP

 

[Mike F]

John,

Thank you so much for the quick response. The second recommendation that
you provided gives me exactly what I'm expecting to see! The question now
is...why??? Isn't actual work, actual work across the MSP board? Why does
one view interpret it differently?

We are actually using PWA and EPK timesheets to push our actual work effort
to Project Professional 2003. I'm not a developer or a SQL guru, so I'm not
sure how the MSP tables marry up to the EPK tables. Perhaps we can redirect
our actuals from EPK to this Resource Usage Form instead of the form we're
using now?

Just trying to understand the logic.

Thanks again!

 

[Steve House]

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days - Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does 4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration task.

HTH

 

[John]

John,

Thank you so much for the quick response. The second recommendation that
you provided gives me exactly what I'm expecting to see! The question now
is...why??? Isn't actual work, actual work across the MSP board? Why does
one view interpret it differently?

We are actually using PWA and EPK timesheets to push our actual work effort
to Project Professional 2003. I'm not a developer or a SQL guru, so I'm not
sure how the MSP tables marry up to the EPK tables. Perhaps we can redirect
our actuals from EPK to this Resource Usage Form instead of the form we're
using now?

Just trying to understand the logic.

Thanks again!

Mike,
You're welcome, and you know, I'm not sure why using a combination view
(i.e. Usage view) allows you to get what you want but other views with
the same data do not. It must have something to do with the timescaled
values which are only accessible in the usage views.

As far as PWA or EPK, I can't help you there. I suggest you post to our
sister newsgroup:
microsoft.public.project.server

John

 

[Steve House]

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration" does not
mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work changes
instead of the duration.

 

[Mike F]

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works like a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question is, why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views? Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days - Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does 4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Mike F]

I'm right there with ya Steve. In fact, another problem we're having (using
the same scenario) is that if Joe has 0 remaining work and Tim needs an extra
5 days to do his, we logically change the duration of the task from 10 to 15
days. Tim's Remaining work adjusts accordingly, but Joe's ACTUAL work
changes...even though he's not putting in additional effort. His work on
this task completed within the 10 days we estimated for him.

Hmmmm....

Mike F

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration" does not
mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work changes
instead of the duration.

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Hi,

Actul Work ON A CERTAIN DAY is not the same inforemation as actual work on
the task without further specification; and different input onfo generally
generates different result

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works like a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question is, why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views? Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days - Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does 4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Hi,
There's one of the top importance lessons I teac:
When there is more than one resource on a task, handle that as several
tasks, in other words only use a Usage view to see what happens.
DON't touch the Gantt Chart or any view that handles the TASK. it doesn't
exist any more: here are two assignments, both living a life of their own.
Hope this helps

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

I'm right there with ya Steve. In fact, another problem we're having (using
the same scenario) is that if Joe has 0 remaining work and Tim needs an extra
5 days to do his, we logically change the duration of the task from 10 to 15
days. Tim's Remaining work adjusts accordingly, but Joe's ACTUAL work
changes...even though he's not putting in additional effort. His work on
this task completed within the 10 days we estimated for him.

Hmmmm....

Mike F

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration" does not
mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work changes
instead of the duration.

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Steve House]

It's not so much that it's dependent on the views, it's a matter of where
the work is distributed when you make the entry. In resource usage view you
can "contour" the actual work to show it performed on the days when it took
place. But when you enter aggregates, which is what you're doing when you
use the Task Form or the Gantt chart, Project distributes the work as the
scheduled values call for it to be distributed. In the case of Tim having
done his assigned 8 hours in the first three days, if you simply enter it as
a total of 8 hours actual on the task form, Project assumed he has done 0.8
hours per day for 10 days, just what the schedule called for. Why? Because
you didn't tell it anything different. Now you add 2 more hours. He's
already worked for 10 days so the only place that can be added is AFTER the
10th day. He works at a rate of 0.8 hours per day because that's what his
assignment percentage calls for. So to do 2 more hours of work at 0.8 hours
per day will require 2+ additional days, over and above the 10 days he's
already worked. The duration extends because even though the task is fixed
duration, the total duration originally called is already in the past and
now any new work added must occur in the future (unless you have a time
machine). The moral - if a resource is doing more work per day than the
schedule called for him to do, you have to enter the actual work day by day
rather than just entering and editing totals. If Tim did his 8 hours in the
first three days you have to make sure your actuals reflect accurate history
and not assume it is averaged over the originally scheduled 10 days.
--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works like
a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within
the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question is,
why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views? Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of
meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days -
Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days
shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of
the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in
Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration
remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start
resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on
the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that
adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does
4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration
task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that
has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe
are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task
has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated"
to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours
in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this
task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is
just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year
project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team
has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can
we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying
to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that
estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Mike F]

Jan,

So...what you're suggesting is that if I have one task (Paint Room) with two
resources (Tim and Joe), I should create a task for each?? (Tim - Paint Room
and Joe - Paint Room)

Mike

Hi,
There's one of the top importance lessons I teac:
When there is more than one resource on a task, handle that as several
tasks, in other words only use a Usage view to see what happens.
DON't touch the Gantt Chart or any view that handles the TASK. it doesn't
exist any more: here are two assignments, both living a life of their own.
Hope this helps

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

I'm right there with ya Steve. In fact, another problem we're having (using
the same scenario) is that if Joe has 0 remaining work and Tim needs an extra
5 days to do his, we logically change the duration of the task from 10 to 15
days. Tim's Remaining work adjusts accordingly, but Joe's ACTUAL work
changes...even though he's not putting in additional effort. His work on
this task completed within the 10 days we estimated for him.

Hmmmm....

Mike F

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration" does not
mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work changes
instead of the duration.

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Mike F]

Thanks again, Steve. I appreciate your response, and it's something I can
totally understand now! I'm going to post another question to the SERVER
portion of this site, but was wondering if you knew whether or not MS
Project's Timesheet inputs actual work this way? Into one of the usage
views? Or does it input it into one of the aggregate views? Any idea?

Mike

It's not so much that it's dependent on the views, it's a matter of where
the work is distributed when you make the entry. In resource usage view you
can "contour" the actual work to show it performed on the days when it took
place. But when you enter aggregates, which is what you're doing when you
use the Task Form or the Gantt chart, Project distributes the work as the
scheduled values call for it to be distributed. In the case of Tim having
done his assigned 8 hours in the first three days, if you simply enter it as
a total of 8 hours actual on the task form, Project assumed he has done 0.8
hours per day for 10 days, just what the schedule called for. Why? Because
you didn't tell it anything different. Now you add 2 more hours. He's
already worked for 10 days so the only place that can be added is AFTER the
10th day. He works at a rate of 0.8 hours per day because that's what his
assignment percentage calls for. So to do 2 more hours of work at 0.8 hours
per day will require 2+ additional days, over and above the 10 days he's
already worked. The duration extends because even though the task is fixed
duration, the total duration originally called is already in the past and
now any new work added must occur in the future (unless you have a time
machine). The moral - if a resource is doing more work per day than the
schedule called for him to do, you have to enter the actual work day by day
rather than just entering and editing totals. If Tim did his 8 hours in the
first three days you have to make sure your actuals reflect accurate history
and not assume it is averaged over the originally scheduled 10 days.
--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works like
a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within
the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question is,
why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views? Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of
meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days -
Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days
shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of
the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in
Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration
remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start
resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on
the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that
adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does
4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration
task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that
has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe
are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task
has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated"
to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours
in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this
task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is
just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year
project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team
has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can
we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying
to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that
estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Steve House]

That one I'll need to defer to others one - not a server/PWS guru myself.


--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Thanks again, Steve. I appreciate your response, and it's something I can
totally understand now! I'm going to post another question to the SERVER
portion of this site, but was wondering if you knew whether or not MS
Project's Timesheet inputs actual work this way? Into one of the usage
views? Or does it input it into one of the aggregate views? Any idea?

Mike

It's not so much that it's dependent on the views, it's a matter of where
the work is distributed when you make the entry. In resource usage view
you
can "contour" the actual work to show it performed on the days when it
took
place. But when you enter aggregates, which is what you're doing when
you
use the Task Form or the Gantt chart, Project distributes the work as the
scheduled values call for it to be distributed. In the case of Tim
having
done his assigned 8 hours in the first three days, if you simply enter it
as
a total of 8 hours actual on the task form, Project assumed he has done
0.8
hours per day for 10 days, just what the schedule called for. Why?
Because
you didn't tell it anything different. Now you add 2 more hours. He's
already worked for 10 days so the only place that can be added is AFTER
the
10th day. He works at a rate of 0.8 hours per day because that's what
his
assignment percentage calls for. So to do 2 more hours of work at 0.8
hours
per day will require 2+ additional days, over and above the 10 days he's
already worked. The duration extends because even though the task is
fixed
duration, the total duration originally called is already in the past and
now any new work added must occur in the future (unless you have a time
machine). The moral - if a resource is doing more work per day than the
schedule called for him to do, you have to enter the actual work day by
day
rather than just entering and editing totals. If Tim did his 8 hours in
the
first three days you have to make sure your actuals reflect accurate
history
and not assume it is averaged over the originally scheduled 10 days.
--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual
work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works
like
a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within
the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by
adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question
is,
why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views?
Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

:

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of
meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days -
Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days
shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's
scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each
of
the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in
Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration
remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start
resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work
on
the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is
still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that
adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe
does
4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at
that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration
task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings)
that
has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and
Joe
are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this
task
has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are
"estimated"
to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4
hours
in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two
hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When
he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside
the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource
assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this
task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is
just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year
project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My
team
has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What
can
we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're
trying
to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that
estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Steve House]

Not to put words into Jan's mouth, sort of but not quite. While you might
list it in the schedule as one task with two resources assigned for
convenience, always keep in mind that Project treats it as if it were two
independent tasks, each with its own resource, when it comes to doing the
calculations.
--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Jan,

So...what you're suggesting is that if I have one task (Paint Room) with
two
resources (Tim and Joe), I should create a task for each?? (Tim - Paint
Room
and Joe - Paint Room)

Mike

Hi,
There's one of the top importance lessons I teac:
When there is more than one resource on a task, handle that as several
tasks, in other words only use a Usage view to see what happens.
DON't touch the Gantt Chart or any view that handles the TASK. it doesn't
exist any more: here are two assignments, both living a life of their
own.
Hope this helps

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

I'm right there with ya Steve. In fact, another problem we're having (using
the same scenario) is that if Joe has 0 remaining work and Tim needs an extra
5 days to do his, we logically change the duration of the task from 10
to 15
days. Tim's Remaining work adjusts accordingly, but Joe's ACTUAL work
changes...even though he's not putting in additional effort. His work
on
this task completed within the 10 days we estimated for him.

Hmmmm....

Mike F
:

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration"
does not
mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change
an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work
changes
instead of the duration.

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings)
that has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and
Joe are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this
task has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are
"estimated" to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4
hours in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two
hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule.
When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside
the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My
team has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What
can we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't
the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're
trying to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Hi,
Not a server guru either, but it's pure logic.
When you use Server to report % complete it will work on the task as a whole
When you use the timesheet it updates the actual work timephased (like in
the Usage Views)

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

Thanks again, Steve. I appreciate your response, and it's something I can
totally understand now! I'm going to post another question to the SERVER
portion of this site, but was wondering if you knew whether or not MS
Project's Timesheet inputs actual work this way? Into one of the usage
views? Or does it input it into one of the aggregate views? Any idea?

Mike

It's not so much that it's dependent on the views, it's a matter of where
the work is distributed when you make the entry. In resource usage view you
can "contour" the actual work to show it performed on the days when it took
place. But when you enter aggregates, which is what you're doing when you
use the Task Form or the Gantt chart, Project distributes the work as the
scheduled values call for it to be distributed. In the case of Tim having
done his assigned 8 hours in the first three days, if you simply enter it as
a total of 8 hours actual on the task form, Project assumed he has done 0.8
hours per day for 10 days, just what the schedule called for. Why? Because
you didn't tell it anything different. Now you add 2 more hours. He's
already worked for 10 days so the only place that can be added is AFTER the
10th day. He works at a rate of 0.8 hours per day because that's what his
assignment percentage calls for. So to do 2 more hours of work at 0.8 hours
per day will require 2+ additional days, over and above the 10 days he's
already worked. The duration extends because even though the task is fixed
duration, the total duration originally called is already in the past and
now any new work added must occur in the future (unless you have a time
machine). The moral - if a resource is doing more work per day than the
schedule called for him to do, you have to enter the actual work day by day
rather than just entering and editing totals. If Tim did his 8 hours in the
first three days you have to make sure your actuals reflect accurate history
and not assume it is averaged over the originally scheduled 10 days.
--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve...

You've just eloquently described our problem. When you assign actual work
in the Task Usage View, or the Resource Usage View, everything works like
a
champ! However, when entering actual work via the Task Form, or within
the
Gant Chart View, the calculations go askew. Try this scenario by adding
actual work via the Gant chart view or the Task Form View. I'll betcha
dollars to donuts that the duration will creep. So again my question is,
why
isn't Actual Work calculated or interpreted the same in all views? Seems
logical, right?

Thanks again for the feedback, Gentlemen!

Mike F

:

I can't duplicate your problem. You said "Tim attends 8 hours of
meetings
etc." That implies Actual Work, not scheduled. Here's what I did.

Task "Meetings" 10 days duration, fixed duration, non-effort driven
Resources Tim and Joe, each assigned 10%, work shows 8 hours each
Switch to Task usage view.
Each resource shows 0.8 hours scheduled on each of 10 days.
Display Actual Work row
For Tim enter Actual of 3, 3, and 2 hours on the first three days -
Time's 8
hours is done, no more remaining work. Rest of the remaining 7 days
shows
blank for him, task duration remains 10 days because of Joe's scheduled
work.
For Joe enter Actual of 2,1, and 1 hour per day on first three days.
Remiaing work for him is now 4 hours, scheduled as 0.57 hours on each of
the
remaining 7 days, duration remains 10 days.
Tim is called to another 2 hour meeting on day 4. Enter 2 hours in
Actual
Work on day 4. His work now goes to 12 hours (reality)
But this does not effect Joe or the task duration at all. Duration
remains
10 days as the duration is the time between when the first to start
resource
begins work on the task and the last to finish resource ends his work on
the
task. Tim had finished his assigned 8 hours in 3 days while Joe is still
scheduled for more days to come. At that point Tim disappears from
influencing the task duration in any way UNLESS something happens that
adds
work for him scheduled after Joe has done his bit. Note that if Joe does
4
more hours on day 4, the task duration will drop to 4 days since at that
point all the required work has been done, even for a fixed duration
task.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings) that
has
a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and Joe
are
allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this task
has
a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are "estimated"
to
spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4 hours
in
these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule. When he
does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this
task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This is
just
for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year
project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My team
has
projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What can
we
do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're trying
to
do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that
estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Hi,

No, sorry, I mean that when you assign the two resoruces to the task,
Project starts calculating as if they were 2 tasks, and you can handle them
as such through the task usage view.
HTH

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

Jan,

So...what you're suggesting is that if I have one task (Paint Room) with two
resources (Tim and Joe), I should create a task for each?? (Tim - Paint Room
and Joe - Paint Room)

Mike

Hi,
There's one of the top importance lessons I teac:
When there is more than one resource on a task, handle that as several
tasks, in other words only use a Usage view to see what happens.
DON't touch the Gantt Chart or any view that handles the TASK. it doesn't
exist any more: here are two assignments, both living a life of their own.
Hope this helps

--
Jan De Messemaeker, Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
For FAQs: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm

I'm right there with ya Steve. In fact, another problem we're having (using
the same scenario) is that if Joe has 0 remaining work and Tim needs

an
extra

5 days to do his, we logically change the duration of the task from 10

to
15

days. Tim's Remaining work adjusts accordingly, but Joe's ACTUAL work
changes...even though he's not putting in additional effort. His work on
this task completed within the 10 days we estimated for him.

Hmmmm....

Mike F
:

I know this will get a "what tha...?" reaction but "fixed duration"

does
not

mean the duration never changes. It only means that when you change an
assigned resource's required work, the assignment percentage changes instead
of the duration and if you change a units percentage, the work changes
instead of the duration.

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

For simplicity sake, I have a one task project (General Meetings)

that
has

a
10 day duration and two resources assigned (Tim and Joe). Tim and

Joe
are

allocated to spend 10% of their time in these meetings. Now this

task
has

a
fixed duration, and it is NOT effort driven. So, each are

"estimated"
to

spend 8 hours in meetings over the 10 day duration of this project.

Tim attends 8 hours of meetings in 3 days, and Joe only spends 4

hours
in

these meetings. Well, in day 4, Tim gets pulled into another two hour
meeting and adds this additional work to the project schedule.

When
he

does,
Project comes back with an error "The resource is assigned outside the
original dates for task General Meetings). The duration of this
fixed-duration task will change to accomodate the resource assignment".

Well...because of this extra 2 hours that Tim is putting into this task,
the
fixed duration I am locked into has "creeped" out 6 days!! This

is
just

for
a one line project, so imagine what happens when I have a 1 year project
where all of my dependencies are set and feed off this task. My

team
has

projects that are creeping out YEARS because of this issue. What

can
we

do
to prevent this schedule creep? Fixed duration apparently isn't the
solution. Constraint dates on tasks don't help either. We're

trying
to

do a
better job in "estimating" task durations, but we all know that estimates
are
inded estimates and change throughout the life cycle of a project.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!