Language selection

[Rainald Taesler]

A permanent source of anger - by the day and the hour - for me is the
way the language selection tool works.

I.
Why?
1.) When taking notes I'm normally doing this in German.
But most often things imported - be it things from the web or just
postings from this NG - are in English.

2.) As the spellchecker cannot be disabled for just a page or a
paragraph, almost every word in an English text is shown with the
underlining for wrong spelling.
I cannot disable the spellchecker globally because I need it for my
editing (being a true TypoKing, not only in English but in Germany too
[siiigh]).

3.) Therefore I use the workaround to assign English to the
"paragraphs" (containers) as a workaround for the spellchecker not
being customizable.

II.
Sounds easy.
Is not easy at all, however.
1.) A click on the menu item opens the TaskPane (a part of the system
which IMHO is used far too often instead of simple pop-up dialogs).
The task pane requires by far too much space.

2.) When in landscape mode (be it on my 19" TFT monitor or on the
TabletPC) it uses almost one third of the ON window.
To continue working I always have to close it immediately after having
made a selection.

3.) When working in portrait mode on my TabletPC, the TaskPane is
opened horizontally below the notebook's workarea.
As the list of available languages is terribly long, it needs
scrolling in the small horizontal TaskPane.
This really is awful. The scrollbar's scroll arrows appear more or
less at random, the slider sometimes is almost totally out of reach,
the up and down arrows of the TaskPane are firing steps too big, the
down arrow often disappears.
It's almost impossible to switch from German to Englisch (and vice
versa)in a reasonable time.

III.
IMO the usage of the TaskPane for a task like selecting a language
means overkill.
A simple old-style pop-up dialog would have been better IMHO.

IV.
I do not at all need the long list of languages.
I neither do work in Assamic, nor in Divehi, Oromo or Zulu.

For my daily work it would be fully sufficient if I could just add a
simple submenu to the "Language Selection" menu item. Two or three
pre-selected languages in the submenu would just be sufficient (at
least for me).

Would there be any way to customize the system?

V.
I would hope that there still would be time to change things in the
upcoming version (although I know that it's not possible to change
and/or add any major features).
If possible, I would a kindly ask for the following:
Either (1)
Add a submenu to the Language Selection menu item.
a) Move opening the TaskPane for the full set of languages there.
b) Allow for customizing by the user, i.e. adding a number of
pre-selected languages.
c) Add a section for specifying default languages in the Options
dialog.

Or (2)
Change the present TaskPane construction to a dialog-box.

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

I am bit surprised by your post. I thought I had outlined steps how to
actually use language selection in an earlier post? The key simply is
that language selection is not done in Office, but in Windows. It
basically does everything you are asking for. It's just not an Office
function, but one of your operating system.
If you need the steps again, let me know.

Patrick Schmid
--------------
http://pschmid.net

A permanent source of anger - by the day and the hour - for me is the
way the language selection tool works.

I.
Why?
1.) When taking notes I'm normally doing this in German.
But most often things imported - be it things from the web or just
postings from this NG - are in English.

2.) As the spellchecker cannot be disabled for just a page or a
paragraph, almost every word in an English text is shown with the
underlining for wrong spelling.
I cannot disable the spellchecker globally because I need it for my
editing (being a true TypoKing, not only in English but in Germany too
[siiigh]).

3.) Therefore I use the workaround to assign English to the
"paragraphs" (containers) as a workaround for the spellchecker not
being customizable.

II.
Sounds easy.
Is not easy at all, however.
1.) A click on the menu item opens the TaskPane (a part of the system
which IMHO is used far too often instead of simple pop-up dialogs).
The task pane requires by far too much space.

2.) When in landscape mode (be it on my 19" TFT monitor or on the
TabletPC) it uses almost one third of the ON window.
To continue working I always have to close it immediately after having
made a selection.

3.) When working in portrait mode on my TabletPC, the TaskPane is
opened horizontally below the notebook's workarea.
As the list of available languages is terribly long, it needs
scrolling in the small horizontal TaskPane.
This really is awful. The scrollbar's scroll arrows appear more or
less at random, the slider sometimes is almost totally out of reach,
the up and down arrows of the TaskPane are firing steps too big, the
down arrow often disappears.
It's almost impossible to switch from German to Englisch (and vice
versa)in a reasonable time.

III.
IMO the usage of the TaskPane for a task like selecting a language
means overkill.
A simple old-style pop-up dialog would have been better IMHO.

IV.
I do not at all need the long list of languages.
I neither do work in Assamic, nor in Divehi, Oromo or Zulu.

For my daily work it would be fully sufficient if I could just add a
simple submenu to the "Language Selection" menu item. Two or three
pre-selected languages in the submenu would just be sufficient (at
least for me).

Would there be any way to customize the system?

V.
I would hope that there still would be time to change things in the
upcoming version (although I know that it's not possible to change
and/or add any major features).
If possible, I would a kindly ask for the following:
Either (1)
Add a submenu to the Language Selection menu item.
a) Move opening the TaskPane for the full set of languages there.
b) Allow for customizing by the user, i.e. adding a number of
pre-selected languages.
c) Add a section for specifying default languages in the Options
dialog.

Or (2)
Change the present TaskPane construction to a dialog-box.

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid shared these words of wisdom:

I am bit surprised by your post.

I'm surprised that you are surprised :-(
Didn't you read my points one by one??
What I wrote here IMO has hardly anything to do with what we discussed
recently. The only thing common AFAICS is that it's on using different
languages ;-)

I thought I had outlined steps how to actually use language
selection in an earlier post?

Oh yes you did. And I'm thankful that you did and the way you did it.

The key simply is that language selection is not done in Office, but
in Windows. It basically does everything you are asking for.

No. It's something different.
Language selection on the OS level is contra-productive as this gives
me a keyboard behaving as if it had an English layout. And that's
something I cannot work with.

It's just not an Office function, but one of your operating
system. If you need the steps again, let me know.

Thanks for the offer.
But I've that in a safe place. And I even know where <bg>.
Where? Easy enough these days due to ON <g>.

As this thread is on the language in ON (not on the OS level), I'll
come on this in the old thread.

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Rainald Taesler shared these words of wisdom:

3.) When working in portrait mode on my TabletPC, the TaskPane is
opened horizontally below the notebook's workarea.
As the list of available languages is terribly long, it needs
scrolling in the small horizontal TaskPane.
This really is awful. The scrollbar's scroll arrows appear more
or less at random, the slider sometimes is almost totally out of
reach, the up and down arrows of the TaskPane are firing steps
too big, the down arrow often disappears.
It's almost impossible to switch from German to Englisch (and
vice versa)in a reasonable time.

Follow-up/addendum to the above:
After having tinkered with the TaskPane for a longer while I can
report success so in far that I now have managed to get the TaskPane
operable for the tablet being in portrait mode.

If one drags the TaskPane bigger by drawing the separator line between
the ON note window and the TaskPane upward (takes a bit of care with
the pen), the needed functionality of the scrollbar can be gained.
The needed height for the TaskPane seems to be app. 20% of the height
of the screen.
It can be that one has to click once or twice on the down-arrow on the
lower border of the TaskPane but then the Scrollbar has the needed up
and down handlers as well as the slider.

By the default the TaskPane is not as big as need.

I regard both - (a) the default height and (b) the inoperability of
the scrollbar if the TaskPane is big enough - as a bug which should be
taken care of.

Added: The TaskPane being functional if dragged high enough does not
touch my need to have an easier way to assign a language to a
paragraph in an easy way (menu).

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Hmm...

Didn't you read my points one by one??

Yup. I did. Still surprised.

No. It's something different.
Language selection on the OS level is contra-productive as this gives
me a keyboard behaving as if it had an English layout. And that's
something I cannot work with.

Hmm, read my post again. You missed the key step. The key step is to add
English with a German keyboard layout. Then you have it as pure language
selection with always a German keyboard.

As this thread is on the language in ON (not on the OS level), I'll
come on this in the old thread.

Unfortunately, language selection in Office is an OS function, not an
Office function. It's the same across all Office apps.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid shared these words of wisdom:

Hmm, read my post again. You missed the key step. The key step
is to add English with a German keyboard layout. Then you have
it as pure language selection with always a German keyboard.

Oooops. I can be pretty dumb at times [siiigh].
I had read your instructions several times. But obviously not really
grasped the essentials [grrrrhh].

But now I got it!!
I now have "Deutsch (IBM)" both for German and English.
Works great.

Thanks a million.

Unfortunately, language selection in Office is an OS function,
not an Office function. It's the same across all Office apps.

????
OneNote has its own feature of selecting a language for a paragraph
and even down to the character.

Anyhow:
My problems are only partly solved:
Normally I have selected German - not only because the language
selected is valid system-wide, but also because of notetaking in
OneNote.

When importing things into ON (be it with Copy+Paste or with the ON
icon in the browser) the imported things will bear the language
selected in the moment of importing.
If a something in English is imported whilst the OS' language setting
is German, for ON it is German. If f.e. a new page is added in
"Unfiled notes" from an English website, it's seen as German and all
of the text is seen as mis-spelled.
This would mean that every time I'm importing English things I would
have to switch to English with the TaskBar tool. And I have to switch
that back after importing. As I know myself, I'm sure that I will
forget the one or the other at least every second time.

So working with the "global" /Windows) language settings is not really
viable. And it's far more logical to change the language where it's
needed, i.e. in ON.

All in all:
My problem is not really solved.

Let me summarize:
1.) The main thing would be to change the way the spellchecker works.
There were quite some other posting wanting to have this.
It should be possible to exclude pages and paragraph from the
automatic checking and showing the mistakes.
I could really live with imported English text being seen as German if
the nasty spellchecker underlining would suppressed.

2.) The wish explained in this thread remains.
A submenu for the language selection menu item for easy selecting 2
(or 3 or 4, French an Italian in addition) languages would offer ways
more comfort than this huge TaskPane with its endless list of
languages.

IMO it might be possible to make the system more intelligent so that
it would remember the selections and the most used ones would appear
on the menu).

Thanks a gain for your help and finally getting me on the rails

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Unfortunately, language selection in Office is an OS function,

????
OneNote has its own feature of selecting a language for a paragraph
and even down to the character.

Sorry, I meant language selection before typing.

When importing things into ON (be it with Copy+Paste or with the ON
icon in the browser) the imported things will bear the language
selected in the moment of importing.
If a something in English is imported whilst the OS' language setting
is German, for ON it is German. If f.e. a new page is added in
"Unfiled notes" from an English website, it's seen as German and all
of the text is seen as mis-spelled.

That's because the website text doesn't have a language associated with
it and OneNote doesn't have the automatic language recognition feature
of Word.

This would mean that every time I'm importing English things I would
have to switch to English with the TaskBar tool. And I have to switch
that back after importing. As I know myself, I'm sure that I will
forget the one or the other at least every second time.

Yes. If OneNote had a built-in language selection feature like you asked
for in your last post, that would be the same requirement. You can
assign keyboard shortcuts and then it's really just the matter of
pressing one of those.

So working with the "global" /Windows) language settings is not really
viable. And it's far more logical to change the language where it's
needed, i.e. in ON.

The setting is not global. The Windows input language setting is program
specific. Your OneNote can be set to a different language than your
notepad, Word, etc. So it is really where it needs to be, except it just
doesn't show in the UI of each program.

Let me summarize:
1.) The main thing would be to change the way the spellchecker works.
There were quite some other posting wanting to have this.
It should be possible to exclude pages and paragraph from the
automatic checking and showing the mistakes.
I could really live with imported English text being seen as German if
the nasty spellchecker underlining would suppressed.

File a suggestion on Connect.

2.) The wish explained in this thread remains.
A submenu for the language selection menu item for easy selecting 2
(or 3 or 4, French an Italian in addition) languages would offer ways
more comfort than this huge TaskPane with its endless list of
languages.

Nope. Get the list down to two languages and you are set. Assign
keyboard shortcuts and it's possible. If the list shows endless
languages, then because you have so many languages installed. Remove the
ones you don't need.
There is no need to provide a feature that already exists in Windows. In
fact, this is a Windows feature and should stay one.

IMO it might be possible to make the system more intelligent so that
it would remember the selections and the most used ones would appear
on the menu).

Why? I only have two items in my menu and switch fast between them using
left alt-shift. Works fine for me.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid shared these words of wisdom:

Sorry, I meant language selection before typing.

The main problem this thread is about is on selecting the language for
*existing* text.

That's because the website text doesn't have a language
associated with it and OneNote doesn't have the automatic
language recognition feature of Word.

Exactly!
And that's why manual selection of the language for a page or a
paragraph has to be made. And that needs to be made easier than it is
at present in order to be really workable.

Yes. If OneNote had a built-in language selection feature like
you asked for in your last post, that would be the same
requirement. You can assign keyboard shortcuts and then it's
really just the matter of pressing one of those.

a) You might remember my standard argument:
How about *pen* usage?
No key-combinations for an application addressed at tablet user.

b) If a key-combination why not a menu-item too?

c) Do you have any idea on how to create a key-combination for
sleeting one out of 2 or 3 or 4 languages?
I do not see a way :-( :-(

The setting is not global. The Windows input language setting is
program specific. Your OneNote can be set to a different
language than your notepad, Word, etc. So it is really where it
needs to be, except it just doesn't show in the UI of each
program.

If a feature is there it has to be shown. No hidden features. Things
have to be obvious.

File a suggestion on Connect.

AFAIK this has been suggested already.
Will try to have a look (not too easy [siiiiigh]) and post a
suggestion.

Nope. Get the list down to two languages and you are set.

Unfortunately now you are loosing me again [siiigh]
How could this be done?
Where would one remove the several dozens of languages at present
showing up in the TaskPane?

Assign keyboard shortcuts and it's possible.
How?

If the list shows endless languages, then because you have so many
languages installed.

I can not remember if there was any list to select the wanted ones
during the Windows install.

Remove the ones you don't need.

Where??
I checked "Windows components" in "Add and remove software".
I checked in the "Region and Language settings" applet (Control
Panel).
Did not see anything for removing languages.

There is no need to provide a feature that already exists in
Windows. In fact, this is a Windows feature and should stay one.

YesNo.
The way OneNote handles language selection is a thing of its own.
And unfortunately it's done with the TaskPane.
In Word 2003 it was done with a dialog called from the menu.
Ways better for computers with smaller displays and XGA resolution
only.

Why? I only have two items in my menu and switch fast between
them using left alt-shift. Works fine for me.

In ON ??? <bg>.
In Windows, possibly.
There I do not have more than two either.
But the list in the TaskPane is endlessly long :-( :-(

Keep with two lanuages for Windows is not of help at all with the
issue discussed here.
As you said yourself the language selection in Windows only works if
used *prior* to editing.
The problem is to assign another language *after* editing and/or
importing.

I do not see any solution in so far for doing this quick & easy
[siiiigh]

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

The main problem this thread is about is on selecting the language for

*existing* text.

Ah, I missed that one

Exactly!
And that's why manual selection of the language for a page or a
paragraph has to be made. And that needs to be made easier than it is
at present in order to be really workable.

I generally select an entire note container (one click on the top of the
box) and hit set language in the task pane.

To answer your other questions:
Control Panel, Regional and Language Options, Languages, Details.
There you'll see the list of all installed Windows languages. Simply
click on the ones you don't want hit remove. Keyboard shortcuts are set
using the Key settings button on the same page.

If you get the list down to only the languages you want, picking a
language via the taskbar icon is as fast a dropdown in ON.

I did ask for adding automatic language selection to OneNote (and PPT
actually as well). Unfortunately, automatic language detection works on
longer phrases/sentences and MS felt that neither in ON or PPT would
these exist abundantly (as they do in Word).

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid shared these words of wisdom:

Ah, I missed that one

That's what I was rather sure about from the very beginning. :-(
And I had really tried my best to explain the issue in an
understandable way :-(
Perhaps contra-productive verbosity ...

I generally select an entire note container (one click on the
top of the box) and hit set language in the task pane.

This is the only way to do it at present.
And this has at least the flair of nonsense.
Dozens of languages when the user needs just 2 or 3 (or 4 if he is
living in Switzerland <bg>).
As said: The task pane is something which does not fit for small
displays.
And as I did explain in detail it's almost unusable in portrait mode.

Although Word 2003 also worked with the TaskPane for the language
selection it has a dialog. Ways better to handle.

To answer your other questions:
Control Panel, Regional and Language Options, Languages, Details.
There you'll see the list of all installed Windows languages.
Simply click on the ones you don't want hit remove. Keyboard
shortcuts are set using the Key settings button on the same page.
....

That's something that I've been knowing for many long years.
An it's something not of any use for the sitution/task this therad is
about.

There obviously were serious misunderstandings between the two of us
from the very beginning of this thread. [siiiigh]
And when in your last posting you did praise how easy things would be
with removing languages from the list and assigning key-combinations
it was my understanding that you were talking on the situation in
*ON*!!!
Whatelse, as I had clearly said (repeatedly) that the problem lies in
assigning a language to *existing* text and I had in detail explained
the situation with imported stuff ...

If you get the list down to only the languages you want, picking
a language via the taskbar icon is as fast a dropdown in ON.

As said: Not of use at all for what this thread is about.

I did ask for adding automatic language selection to OneNote
(and PPT actually as well). Unfortunately, automatic language
detection works on longer phrases/sentences and MS felt that
neither in ON or PPT would these exist abundantly (as they do in
Word).

I don't really care for *automatic* language selection. Might be a bit
of overkill indeed.
But what really matters is a *USABLE* instrument for manually
assigning a language to a page/paragraph.

Pls be so kind as to re-read my initial posting.
I had been wrong as far as the connection language and keyboard is
concerned. I'm really thankful that you made me understand this.
And meanwhile I found a way to make the TaskPane at least usable at
all on a machine in portrait mode.

But the latter does not really touch my concept of having a user
configurable sub-menu for selecting a language.

Hope we might finally be able to straighten this out.

Rainald