FrontPage 2003 and VS.Net

[Minnie Mouse]

I have a website that is in FrontPage 2002. I recently installed VS.NET
2003. I am a programmer and I'd like to learn more about ASP.Net.
Ideally, I'd like to use FrontPage (maybe version 2003?) to manage the bulk
of the website since it has the publishing tools, broken link rpt,
navigation, link toolbars, shared borders etc. Then, I'd like to use VS.Net
to build the ASP.Net features.

Here's the questions:
1. Is it possible to use FrontPage 2003 and VS.Net 2003 to manage the SAME
website?
2. Do I need to import the ASP.Net pages from VS.Net before accessing them
in FrontPage? Or can both products modify the same web?
3. Are there any compatibility issues by using both products?
4. Are the FrontPage functions really hiding in VS.Net but I can't find
them?
5. Can VS.Net publish websites, similar to how FrontPage does, without
manually FTP'ing each page?
6. Will Jimco's book explain any of the above to me? Or are there any
other resources that explain how to use FrontPage and VS.Net on the same
website without having to jump through hoops?

 

[clintonG]

I've been testing FrontPage 2003 (FP2003) for use as a companion product
with Visual Studio.NET (VS.NET) and maintain that both continue to be
miserable and disappointing failures in this context.

I have analyzed the 'books' and have sufficient experience as a consumer
and a professional who has worked directly with publishers. In this context
I
say again, in general and with few exceptions, the books are all too often
little more than plagiarized help file content printed on recycled toilet
paper.

FP2003 does include a very well done new user interface feature called the
'task pane' which supports User Assistance moved to the web where we will
all derive our best experience. Save the trees. Spend your book money on
legitimate and useful printed reference works. Use MSDN. Best yet, delve
into the User Assistance resources distributed with FP2003 and VS.NET
alike and if you can afford it obtain an MSDN subscription as that brings
MSDN right to your desktop.

There is an internal dispute occurring within Microsoft that the
administration
has failed to resolve. That dispute centers around the well known fact that
Front Page and Visual Studio.NET are developed by different groups that
do not cooperate with one another. Thus, we get products that in the
context we are discussing are FUBAR.

ASP.NET development is controlled by by two primary factions:
Macromedia and Microsoft.

Macromedia has no such internal problems that have found their way into
the marketplace and is genuinely customer focused which clearly accounts
for the well deserved success the company and its customers enjoy. Obviously
the DMX 'suite' has issues unique to itself but Macromedia has demonstrated
the state-of-the-art with regard to software development applications
developed
to interoperate with one another.

Microsoft on the other hand -- the laggard in this context -- continues to
'talk'
about how focused they are with regard to supporting developers. In most
regards Microsoft does in fact stand head and shoulders above any and all
contenders but for this ongoing failure to resolve the divide between Front
Page
and Visual Studio.NET that is affecting the productivity of all concerned
with
attempting to use Microsoft products to provide the best experience
possible.

Finally, there's nothing better than your own analysis. Get evaluation
copies and learn first hand and see if you disagree with me. I think not.

--
<%= Clinton Gallagher
A/E/C Consulting, Web Design, e-Commerce Software Development
Wauwatosa, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin USA
NET (e-mail address removed)
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/

 

[Jim Cheshire]

The Task Pane was added in FrontPage 2000, not FrontPage 2003.

I don't see how Microsoft could possibly have the same product group work on
both FrontPage and Visual Studio .NET. Microsoft is not trying to make the
products the same. Each one is designed to meet the needs of different
types of customers. I think you are expecting the two to be a suite, but
they are not and never will be.

Imagine the frustration from most FrontPage users if they had to deal with
VS.NET to design a simple Web site.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[clintonG]

The Task Pane was added in FrontPage 2000, not FrontPage 2003.
Okay.

I don't see how Microsoft could possibly have the same product group work on
both FrontPage and Visual Studio .NET. Microsoft is not trying to make the
products the same. Each one is designed to meet the needs of different
types of customers. I think you are expecting the two to be a suite, but
they are not and never will be.

I know you don't see. That's Microsoft's problem too. They are out of touch
with reality in this context and so are you. At least I think it fair to say
without
intending the statement to be a personal attack. The old and dysfunctional
'different types of customer' argument is just that; old and dysfunctional
and
out of touch with reality.

In less than one week there have been at least three questions posted to
this
newsgroup asking for information regarding the use of FrontPage with Visual
Studio.NET. Hello?

The reality is that there are significant numbers of people who bear the
responsibility of creating the user interface *and* conducting the
programming
required to develop applications. This in fact has become the defacto
SOP (Standard Operational Procedure) in organizations both large and small.
Really, to deny this is simply delusional.

The reality is that both FrontPage and Visual Studio.NET contain functional
overlap in this context yet over successive releases both fail to
interoperate
with one another.

There is no 'vision thing' required to 'see' this. It is evident and plain
as day. Recognizing this reality is in fact why and how Macromedia
has become a powerhouse.

Imagine the frustration from most FrontPage users if they had to deal with
VS.NET to design a simple Web site.

I have no idea how you extrapolated my comments to mean or even
infer what that comment implies.

Rapid development of simple websites has been the legacy of FrontPage
since the boys at Vermeer released their first beta.

There will probably always be a number of neophytes that will need an
application that can be relatively easy to learn to use for purposes of
creating
and publishing a simple website. FrontPage is fine in that regard.

That it fails the growing ranks of us that want and need more is the issue.

What we want and need is simple to convey. We want and need FrontPage
to interoperate with Visual Studio.NET.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Kim Nørby Andersen]

I totally concur with ClintonG - interop with FP and VS.NET is what I
need/lack/wishes for

/Kim

 

[Jim Cheshire]

Three posts in one week in this group hardly constitutes a "vast majority".

I agree that it would be nice to have UI abilities to manage ASP.NET server
controls, but FrontPage 2003 has made a huge step in that it provides both
IntelliSense for said controls and also recognition of the code VS.NET
generates so that it won't munge it up. FrontPage cannot possibly be all
things to all people. However, for an ASP.NET developer, FrontPage 2003
represents a major upgrade and a huge improvement.

I just don't think you can make a case that FrontPage and VS.NET don't
interoperate. Once again, Clinton, I really wish that you would provide
some specifics with the problems you are seeing. I have asked you for
specifics no fewer than 4 times, and you still haven't given me any. If you
can, I might be able to explain what's going on.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[John Clark]

The point that Jim is making is this:

Clinton, why don't you give specific examples? I use VS.net and FrontPage
EVERY DAY. I have used DreamWeaver and find (apparently) exactly the
opposite of what you do: I like DW's PHP support, but for ASP.NET I much
prefer VS and FrontPage.

Can you give any examples of not only a specific thing you have tried to do
with FP/VS that you can't do, and then how you were able to do this with
DW/VS?

Maybe we work in totally different ways; I'm really curious about this
because I find your comments really inaccurate.

-John

 

[Jim Cheshire]

Exactly. I'm not at all trying to discount Clinton's statements. My point
is that there are many people here doing it successfully, and it is entirely
possible that we have encountered and resolved whatever problem Clinton is
seeing.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[clintonG]

Which FrontPage 2003 functions support the same functionality as the
Visual Studio.NET toolbox?

How can FrontPage 2003 be used to generate web server controls?


<%= Clinton Gallagher
A/E/C Consulting, Web Design, e-Commerce Software Development
Wauwatosa, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin USA
NET (e-mail address removed)
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/

 

[Jim Cheshire]

Which FrontPage 2003 functions support the same functionality as the

Visual Studio.NET toolbox?

Server controls are not inserted via an interface. Instead, they are
inserted by either coding it in Code view (and FrontPage offers full
IntelliSense for doing so) or by inserting them in VS.NET or Web Matrix.

How can FrontPage 2003 be used to generate web server controls?

Switch to Code view and enter the necessary code. FrontPage has full
support for IntelliSense on ASP.NET server controls, so doing so is pretty
easy.

Clinton, you have said that FrontPage 2003 doesn't work at all with VS.NET
and talked about how it cannot create ASP.NET pages, etc. Can you give
specifics as to what problems you are having?

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[John Clark]

Given that for creating user controls, DreamWeaver actually has the toolbox;
however (and I guess this points to the different way you work), I use VS
for this.

What kind of VS integration are you looking for, if you are trying to create
Server Controls in FrontPage? What exactly would you use VS for in that
case? And if you create all your server controls in DW, why do you use VS
at all?

Intriguing...

 

[Jim Cheshire]

After following this thread, I think what Clinton really wants to see is an
edition of FrontPage that has all of the page development tools offered in
VS.NET. That's not a bad idea at all, and I think FrontPage is moving in
that direction. However, I don't think that the lack of such functionality
means that FrontPage is a dismal failure at working on ASP.NET applications.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[clintonG]

You finally get it huh? Better late than never.


<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Jim Cheshire]

I got it very early on, Clinton. What I don't get is why you aren't willing
to share the problems you are having despite the requests of several of us
to share them with us. Could it be that your claims that there are many
problems here are overstated?

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[clintonG]

Most of my development has been using HomeSite and NotePad.
I don't use DMX or FrontPage because I have to. I began using
them because they help me become more productive when needing
to develop a user interface for web applications.

If Visual Studio.NET did not provide the same type of productivity
enhancements in its own context nobody would have any justification
to use it and they would simply continue using their preferred text editor.

This applies to using DMX and FrontPage as well and is simple to
sum up by saying that we have been compelled to use the right tool
for the job at hand.

Having come to the cross-over point when text editors became
unproductive to use was the reason developers adopted the use
of DMX and/or FrontPage. Many of us have used *both* DMX
and FrontPage and continue to use our text editors in a minor role
do we not?

We're on the cusp of another cross-over point though.
A cross-over point where DMX will continue to be an outstanding
tool for web development but in a narrowly defined context
relegated to developing 'web sites.'

This cross-over has come about with the advent of the
..NET Framework and Visual Studio.NET but is most obvious
when considering the role of SharePoint Services and the release of
Office 2003 -- both of which have become development platforms --
that are redefining the meaning of what a 'web site' is.

The web is no longer 'out there' on a 'site' when it has been brought
right back to our desktop and functions trasnparently within applications.

To me that means FrontPage leaps back into the forefront except
for the miserable and disappointing fact that the release of
FrontPage 2003 has failed to provide the level of interoperability
required by those who could pull way ahead of the pack as early
adopters.

I don't know what you read but one of the single most discussed
elements of software development in the trade magazines is that of
the issues regarding interoperability.

I have enough work to do with study, advancing my skills, marketing
and so on. I need productivity from my tools and I need it now.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Jim Cheshire]

To me that means FrontPage leaps back into the forefront except

for the miserable and disappointing fact that the release of
FrontPage 2003 has failed to provide the level of interoperability
required by those who could pull way ahead of the pack as early
adopters.

Okay, I give up. You have said over and over that FrontPage has failed
here, but you have yet to point out one single problem you are having that
leads you to that conclusion. On the other hand, there are many of us who
have stated in this thread and others that we frequently use FrontPage and
VS.NET together on very complex Web applications and have no problems.

We can certainly continue if you want to provide examples, but as it stands
now, I just don't understand what problems you could possibly be having.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com

 

[clintonG]

You may use the Visual Studio.NET designer and so do I
-- grudgingly -- but doing so is not as productive as using FrontPage
with regard to developing a user interface for ASP.NET
applications (Web Forms).

FrontPage is the defacto 'front end' tool and Visual Studio.NET
is the defacto 'back end' tool yet both are now being inundated
with creeping and lame redundancy (designer) or outright failure
to support fundamental user interface requirements (FrontPage
lack of support to generate web server controls).

What kind of 'VS integration' you ask? I would use the word
'interoperability' and refer to the outstanding job being produced
by Macromedia in this context.

For example, FrontPage and Visual Studio.NET should interoperate
in much the same way that DMX interoperates with applications
such as Fireworks. The same can be applied to the text editors,
the toolboxes and so on.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Jim Cheshire]

Well, who knows what the future holds for these products. However, I
think it's a very strong overstatement to say that FrontPage's ability to
work on ASP.NET projects is a dismal failure.

FrontPage can create ASP.NET server controls. You just have to code it in
Code view. There is no toolbox. However, I think most ASP.NET developers
would agree that developing server controls is a task better suited to an
application development tool such as VS.NET and not a Web page development
tool such as FrontPage. I think this falls into the "right tool for the
job" scenario.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com