Infuriating

K

kevs

You know what really infuriates me about Entourage?

You delete a few folders you don't need, and then you see a really important
folder is now missing.

But you can't go to the trash and check those folders out, right? They are
just gone. Microsoft can't figure out a better way on this????????


OS 10.3.4
Office 2004
 
P

Paul Berkowitz

You know what really infuriates me about Entourage?

You delete a few folders you don't need, and then you see a really important
folder is now missing.

But you can't go to the trash and check those folders out, right? They are
just gone. Microsoft can't figure out a better way on this????????
Click to expand...

What are you talking about?

If you deleted some folders you don't need, I guess you don't need them.

If you deleted a folder you do need, you'll find it, plus the ones you don't
need, in the Deleted Items folder. You just have to click its disclosure
triangle, and there they all are.

Of course if you have a schedule to Empty Deleted Items Folder on quit, and
you quit, they'll be gone. Maybe if you're in the habit of deleting folder
you need, you shouldn't run the schedule automatically but only manually.

If the folders happen to be IMAP folders, you should just unsubscribe from
them. They'll still be there if you find you need them.


--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Microsoft Office you are using -
**2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions
otherwise.
 
K

kevs

What are you talking about?

If you deleted some folders you don't need, I guess you don't need them.

If you deleted a folder you do need, you'll find it, plus the ones you don't
need, in the Deleted Items folder. You just have to click its disclosure
triangle, and there they all are.

Of course if you have a schedule to Empty Deleted Items Folder on quit, and
you quit, they'll be gone. Maybe if you're in the habit of deleting folder
you need, you shouldn't run the schedule automatically but only manually.

If the folders happen to be IMAP folders, you should just unsubscribe from
them. They'll still be there if you find you need them.
Click to expand...
Thanks Paul:
I deleted like 4 or 5 folders, just regular non imap folders. Then like 10
minutes later deleted them from the deleted items folder.

Then 10 minutes later, I noticed on of my key folders was missing, how and
why I have no idea. I think if would be nice if I could have gone to trash
and found it. I guess Entourage is is not part of the normal OS, where it
seems everything else you delete can be retrieved from trash, it's a nice
feature I'm used to.
OS 10.3.4
Office 2004
 
B

Bill Weylock

I know it has to feel lousy to delete something you need. I've done that,
and I'm sure most other people have done it.

You can't really blame poor old Entourage for doing what you tell it,
though. How angry would you be if you told it to empty the Deleted Items
folder and it refused to do so until you had told it again and then again?

It behaves the same way Eudora and Outlook Express do. When you delete, it
puts it in the trash. When you empty the trash, the item is toast.


Best,


- Bill


Thanks Paul:
I deleted like 4 or 5 folders, just regular non imap folders. Then like 10
minutes later deleted them from the deleted items folder.

Then 10 minutes later, I noticed on of my key folders was missing, how and
why I have no idea. I think if would be nice if I could have gone to trash
and found it. I guess Entourage is is not part of the normal OS, where it
seems everything else you delete can be retrieved from trash, it's a nice
feature I'm used to.
OS 10.3.4
Office 2004
Click to expand...



Panther 10.3.4
Office 2004
 
P

Paul Berkowitz

But it's exactly the same! The Deleted Items folder is your safety net, like
the Finder's Trash - at least for messages. and folders. (Why events, tasks
notes and contacts don't behave this way I don't know.) When you deleted
your 4 or 5 folders, they ended up in Deleted Items, where you could
retrieve them if you wanted. Once you emptied the Deleted Items folder, that
was your confirmation you really wanted them to vanish. It's just the same
in the Finder: once you empty the Trash it's empty. You can't retrieve
anything any more. I suppose Entourage gives one more capability the Finder
doesn't have: you can purge individual items from the Deleted Items folder -
you don't have to empty all or nothing. Not many people know that, mind you.
It actually gives you greater safety in being able to pick and choose, but
it seems to somehow have led you into thinking that Deleted Items wasn't the
final resting place. But it is. I'm sorry you lost your messages.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Microsoft Office you are using -
**2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions
otherwise.
 
K

kevs

But it's exactly the same! The Deleted Items folder is your safety net, like
the Finder's Trash - at least for messages. and folders. (Why events, tasks
notes and contacts don't behave this way I don't know.) When you deleted
your 4 or 5 folders, they ended up in Deleted Items, where you could
retrieve them if you wanted. Once you emptied the Deleted Items folder, that
was your confirmation you really wanted them to vanish. It's just the same
in the Finder: once you empty the Trash it's empty. You can't retrieve
anything any more. I suppose Entourage gives one more capability the Finder
doesn't have: you can purge individual items from the Deleted Items folder -
you don't have to empty all or nothing. Not many people know that, mind you.
It actually gives you greater safety in being able to pick and choose, but
it seems to somehow have led you into thinking that Deleted Items wasn't the
final resting place. But it is. I'm sorry you lost your messages.
Click to expand...
You guys have a point. Just have to realize I'm not in Finder, I'm in
Entourage World.


OS 10.3.4
Office 2004
 
K

Kenny F

You guys have a point. Just have to realize I'm not in Finder, I'm in
Entourage World.
Click to expand...

You still seem to not get this.

The Entourage trash and the Finder trash work essentially the same way. You
toss stuff in there when you are done with it, but when the trash gets
"trashed" it's gone, permanently. They are both the same that way.

When you "deleted them from the deleted items folder" you must have gotten
the warning dialog -

"Are you sure you want to empty the ŒDeleted Items¹ folder?
Entourage will permanently delete all messages and subfolders in this
folder."

You chose to delete them permanently.

This warning dialog box initially contains the choice to ³Not show this
message again.² If you chose at some time to tick that box, bypassing all
such future warnings, then only you are responsible for doing that; and then
getting stung for not heeding the warning it was trying to give you.

Even the Finder warns you before permanently emptying the Trash:
³ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE ITEMS IN THE TRASH PERMANENTLY?
You cannot undo this action.²

So there are three default steps involved in deleting folders or mail
permanently in Entourage:

1. Select Delete or drag to trash
2. Request deleting of the deleted items folder
3. Confirm permanency of that action

To me that sounds like a triple protection plan.


Last but not least:

If you have taken the time to back up your computer, or at least your
Entourage Identity, you would be able to restore any lost data, Entourage or
other.

Remember: There are only two kinds of computer users ­ those who have lost
data, and those who haven¹t lost data, yet.


=========================
Kenny F
 
K

kevs

You still seem to not get this.

The Entourage trash and the Finder trash work essentially the same way. You
toss stuff in there when you are done with it, but when the trash gets
"trashed" it's gone, permanently. They are both the same that way.

When you "deleted them from the deleted items folder" you must have gotten the
warning dialog -

"Are you sure you want to empty the ŒDeleted Items¹ folder?
Entourage will permanently delete all messages and subfolders in this folder."

You chose to delete them permanently.

This warning dialog box initially contains the choice to ³Not show this
message again.² If you chose at some time to tick that box, bypassing all such
future warnings, then only you are responsible for doing that; and then
getting stung for not heeding the warning it was trying to give you.

Even the Finder warns you before permanently emptying the Trash:
³ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE ITEMS IN THE TRASH PERMANENTLY?
You cannot undo this action.²

So there are three default steps involved in deleting folders or mail
permanently in Entourage:

1. Select Delete or drag to trash
2. Request deleting of the deleted items folder
3. Confirm permanency of that action

To me that sounds like a triple protection plan.


Last but not least:

If you have taken the time to back up your computer, or at least your
Entourage Identity, you would be able to restore any lost data, Entourage or
other.

Remember: There are only two kinds of computer users ­ those who have lost
data, and those who haven¹t lost data, yet.


=========================
Kenny F
Click to expand...

Thanks Kenny:
Excellent info!

Kevs
OS 10.3.4
Office 2004
 
M

matt neuburg

Kenny F said:
The Entourage trash and the Finder trash work essentially the same way. You
toss stuff in there when you are done with it, but when the trash gets
"trashed" it's gone, permanently. They are both the same that way.

When you "deleted them from the deleted items folder" you must have gotten
the warning dialog -

"Are you sure you want to empty the 'Deleted Items' folder?
Entourage will permanently delete all messages and subfolders in this
folder."

You chose to delete them permanently.
Click to expand...

The issue here is actually rather profound. A computer is a tool, like a
hammer. If you choose to whack yourself on the thumb with the hammer,
the hammer can't stop you. And you can accidentally whack yourself on
the thumb. The difference between the hammer and the computer is that we
get used to the idea that the computer is "intelligent", at least to the
extent of having enough safeguards to save us from our own stupidity.
But:

(1) This is a veneer, an illusion. Ultimately (bugs aside, of course)
the computer is just going to do what you tell it to do, so it's up to
you to mean what you say and to say what you mean.

(2) This is actually quite a difficult design problem. In a program I
wrote, I did in fact put in a second dialog:

"Do you really want to delete all messages?"

User: OK

"Do you really, really, REALLY want to delete ALL messages?"

User: YES!

At this point the user has chosen a menu item and replied in the
affirmative to two dialogs, so the program obeys. But whether the second
dialog is insulting or helpful depends upon your point of view; and
there is no denying that it starts down a slippery slope: how long are
we to keep this up? The simple fact is that sooner or later any program
or system simply has to stop putting up warning messages and obey the
user's commands; otherwise the user will never get anything done. (This
is the same point made by Bill Weylock earlier.)

Now, whether you were given *enough* warning depends on where you sit.
In the case of Entourage I think an argument can be made that there is
not enough warning, or perhaps that the warning is not sufficiently
strong (perhaps the OP would have got the message if instead of
"permanently" the dialog had said "THIS ACTION CANNOT BE UNDONE!". But
the "Delete" button is not the default - the user must physically use
the mouse - so that point of view, while it has some merit, does not
have much. m.
 
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