is there any class I can take re: ms project?

[camille]

I live in WA and am trying to fugure out ms project. It looks like a great
program, I just think it would be helpful to take a class on it.
Can you help me?

 

[Jim Aksel]

There are numerous options. You may want to try local community colleges,
etc. There are a score of training companies around that can probably help
you. You may want to start by contacting a local Chapter of one of the
Microsoft Project User Groups:
http://www.mpug.org/default.aspx
Or the local chapter of the Project Management Institute:
http://www.pmi.org
Or the local chapter of the American Management Association
http://www.amanet.org/index.htm

They should get you a good start -- without making it a commercial.

 

[davegb]

I live in WA and am trying to fugure out ms project. It looks like a great
program, I just think it would be helpful to take a class on it.
Can you help me?

There are a lot of people giving classes in MS Project. Unfortunately,
only a few of them really understand it. The tricky part is finding one
of those. I suggest you inquire as to whether or not the instructor has
a PMP or at least has some knowledge of CPM scheduling. Another
criteria would be to ask the instructor if they know what feature to
turn off in order for Project to do CPM scheduling properly. If they
don't know to turn off "Autolink inserted or Moved tasks", they don't
really understand how Project is supposed to work.

Hope this helps in your world.

 

[Jack Dahlgren]

There are a lot of people giving classes in MS Project. Unfortunately,
only a few of them really understand it. The tricky part is finding one
of those. I suggest you inquire as to whether or not the instructor has
a PMP or at least has some knowledge of CPM scheduling.

Dave,

I'm not sure I see the correlation between PMP and knowing MS Project or
being an effective teacher. Most of the people I know who I'd consider
"expert" at Project do NOT have a PMP certification. You are perfectly
correct about the CPM scheduling aspect though. That is what project is meant
to do so any teacher should know the basics of CPM. I think it is equally
important that they are able to teach it to others. How to determine this
prior to signing up for a class is something I'm at a loss to figure out
though. Recommendations from people who have taken the training is probably
the best way.

Another
criteria would be to ask the instructor if they know what feature to
turn off in order for Project to do CPM scheduling properly. If they
don't know to turn off "Autolink inserted or Moved tasks", they don't
really understand how Project is supposed to work.

Um... I think you need to be a bit careful with this question. Project does
CPM scheduling perfectly fine with this feature turned on. It can give
unexpected results while EDITING the schedule however. I agree it should be
turned off first thing just to avoid accidents though!

I think that there were a number of questions posted a year or two ago which
would identify whether a person really knows project or not. Maybe we should
revive that thread for some fun this week?

-Jack Dahlgren
http://zo-d.com/blog

 

[davegb]

Dave,

I'm not sure I see the correlation between PMP and knowing MS Project or
being an effective teacher. Most of the people I know who I'd consider
"expert" at Project do NOT have a PMP certification. You are perfectly
correct about the CPM scheduling aspect though. That is what project is meant
to do so any teacher should know the basics of CPM. I think it is equally
important that they are able to teach it to others. How to determine this
prior to signing up for a class is something I'm at a loss to figure out
though. Recommendations from people who have taken the training is probably
the best way.


Um... I think you need to be a bit careful with this question. Project does
CPM scheduling perfectly fine with this feature turned on. It can give
unexpected results while EDITING the schedule however. I agree it should be
turned off first thing just to avoid accidents though!

I think that there were a number of questions posted a year or two ago which
would identify whether a person really knows project or not. Maybe we should
revive that thread for some fun this week?

-Jack Dahlgren
http://zo-d.com/blog

Jack,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that having a PMP and being an effective
teacher are not directly related. My point was that someone who knows
nothing about PM and tries to teach Project will be a mediocre at
teaching it at best, regardless of how good an instructor they might be
otherwise. You can't read up in Pyron and understand this application,
which is what many so-called Project instructors have done. I know
because I've been brought in behind them and had to re-teach students
how to use this tool.

If I implied you need to have a PMP to teach Project, then I mis-spoke
(or mis-typed). That was not my intention.

As for Project doing CPM scheduling just fine with Autolink on, I
strongly beg to disagree. Many years ago, it took me weeks of working
with Project to track down why extraneous links kept appearing in my
schedules. For years I've asked "experienced" users if they
occasionally found mysterious links in their schedules that they hadn't
put there. At least half have responded "yes". Maybe the type of
schedules you do are always linked in sequence, top to bottom, withing
a summary line, but most of mine are not. I found it very time-wasting
and frustrating to find and remove links that weren't supposed to be
there, and so have many other users. I consider this to be a major
factor in discerning whether someone is truely an intermediate user, or
just someone who's used the software a long time, but doesn't really
understand CPM and scheduling.

I think we've had very different experiences in using Project. This
benefits those who come here for help. And I know I have strong
opinions about what works and what doesn't. I merely pass on my
experience to my students. If they hear differing points of view here,
then they can choose which way best suits their needs.

 

[Dale Howard [MVP]]

davegb --

Once again I strongly disagree with your assertion about what an instructor
needs to know to "understand how Project is supposed to work." I believe
you are grossly overestimating the importance of that one option. How about
displaying the Project Summary Task? Don't you think that is pretty
important, and perhaps a better clue as to whether an instructor knows the
"ins and outs" of Microsoft Project?

 

[Dale Howard [MVP]]

davegb --

Oh, and by the way, I do not have a PMP certification. I'm only a Microsoft
Project MVP. I guess I would not qualify as an instructor under your
conditions and criteria. Isn't it more important that an instructor have
years of "hands on" experience with the software, in practical project
management situations, and not merely know the features of the software by
learning it out of a book?

 

[davegb]

davegb --

Once again I strongly disagree with your assertion about what an instructor
needs to know to "understand how Project is supposed to work." I believe
you are grossly overestimating the importance of that one option. How about
displaying the Project Summary Task? Don't you think that is pretty
important, and perhaps a better clue as to whether an instructor knows the
"ins and outs" of Microsoft Project?

I think we're going to continue to disagree on this, Dale. And, no, I
don't think that knowing how to display the project summary task is
that important. If you don't have it, you can live without it. Autolink
sabotages the linking process in many cases. Big difference!

 

[davegb]

davegb --

Oh, and by the way, I do not have a PMP certification. I'm only a Microsoft
Project MVP. I guess I would not qualify as an instructor under your
conditions and criteria.

Seems like you're taking offense at something I didn't say. I said,
"The tricky part is finding one of those. I suggest you inquire as to
whether or not the instructor has
a PMP or at least has some knowledge of CPM scheduling."

See the "or" following the suggestion of a PMP? If you're going to
argue with my posts, Dale, please read them first.

Oh, and by the way, I don't have a PMP either.

Isn't it more important that an instructor have

 

[Wiley]

Interesting debate. You both make good points. However, if I had one
question to ask someone to get a feel for the MSP proficiency, I would ask
them to explain Task Type and how to use the different types. This is
something that is not well expplained in a lot of books and articles. Those
without significant hands on experience in manipulating Task Type to control
Units, Duartion, and Work will have trouble here. As I have frequented this
forum in the last few months, I see so many users who would not have to post
questions if they understood what went on behind the scenes when one of the
Task Types is selected or changed.

 

[davegb]

Interesting debate. You both make good points. However, if I had one
question to ask someone to get a feel for the MSP proficiency, I would ask
them to explain Task Type and how to use the different types. This is
something that is not well expplained in a lot of books and articles. Those
without significant hands on experience in manipulating Task Type to control
Units, Duartion, and Work will have trouble here. As I have frequented this
forum in the last few months, I see so many users who would not have to post
questions if they understood what went on behind the scenes when one of the
Task Types is selected or changed.

I agree that this is also a good indicator, and if I were conducting 1
- 2 hr interviews to hire a Project instructor, it would be one of the
questions I'd ask. But if I were looking for a good instructor to take
a class from, and didn't want to spend a great deal of time with every
candidate, I'd use the autolink question. It's a matter of trying to
find out as quickly as possible if someone has the knowledge to teach
it. I might want to ask other questions to find out if the person is a
good instructor or not, but that's another matter.

I think the reason I'm getting so much heat on this is that I've picked
a question that some of the experts here didn't know the answer to the
first time I posted this idea. I probably should have caveated myself
by saying that you can still be an "expert" and not know this. For what
ever reasons, maybe some people just hadn't stumbled across it, though
it's hard for me to imagine. It was the first major obstacle I found in
applying Project when I was first learning it. I kept finding these
"mystery links" in my schedules. I finally spent an hour and a half
going through menus and combing the manual finding the cause. And I was
stunned when I found it! The idea that the software knows what tasks
should be linked. Absurd!

When I spoke with one of the 5 senior scheduling consultants that MS
hired while they were developing Project for Windows some years ago, he
told me that all of them were agast when they saw what MS had done, and
tried, in vain, to advise against it. But that discussion is part of
the reason why I consider this to be a very important key to
understanding Project. Even Pyron recommends against using this feature
in his books.

My intent is not to insult anyone, but if others are embarrassed by the
fact they failed to discern this issue, I can't help it. My intent is
only to help the OP, and others, to find an instructor who is not a
"button pusher", but someone who can really help their students to
implement Project in the real world. I certainly did not mean to imply
that any of the regular contributors to this NG weren't qualified to
teach Project. If they feel that I have implied that, they need to look
inward, not toward me.

Hope this helps in your world.

 

[Mike Glen]

As a matter of interest, back in 98 I devised a series of questions which
allowed me to assess the depth of knowledge of a prospective student, so
that I could tailor make the introductory aspects of a Project course. I
though I'd share it with the community, for whatever it's worth!


Mike Glen
Project MVP




1. What is a Project?

A project is a unique undertaking that has a clearly defined start and
finish and requires the management of time, resources, cost and quality.



2. What is a logic network?

A network diagram of tasks showing the logical relationships between tasks.



3. What is meant by a Forward Pass and a Backward Pass
The calculation of time through the logic network from start to finish based
on the earliest start time, and back again for the latest finish time.


4. What is float or slack?
The time a task can be delayed without affecting project finish.


5. What is a Critical Task?
A task with zero float or slack.



6. What is a Critical Path?

The shortest path through the network that joins the critical tasks.



7. What is a PERT Chart?

A general use name for a network logic chart.



8. What is a Gantt Chart?

A graphical representation of tasks plotted against a calendar time base.



9. What defines a task start date?

The project start date, the finish of its predecessors, or a specific
constraint.



10. How is a Resource Histogram derived?

By totalling the resources assigned within a specified time scale.



11. What is meant by Resource Levelling or smoothing?

Removing over-allocation of resources by delaying concurrent tasks.

 

[Jack Dahlgren]

I think the reason I'm getting so much heat on this is that I've picked
a question that some of the experts here didn't know the answer to the
first time I posted this idea.

Dave,

I can't say anything about anyone else's motivation, but the reason I don't
care for the question is the way you state it. It affects the construction
and editing of schedules, not the way project calculates them. It is
important to be precise about such questions as the wrong question will
garner a wrong answer.

Try this: turn the feature back on. Does project stil "do CPM scheduling
properly"? I'd contend it does, at least until you edit your schedule.

Now try asking a different way. "What default settings should you turn off
immediately and why?". It is a much better question. In my opinion there is
more than just one setting...

-Jack Dahlgren
http://zo-d.com/blog

 

[Dale Howard [MVP]]

Wiley --

Good point. Thanks for sharing.

Interesting debate. You both make good points. However, if I had one
question to ask someone to get a feel for the MSP proficiency, I would ask
them to explain Task Type and how to use the different types. This is
something that is not well expplained in a lot of books and articles.
Those
without significant hands on experience in manipulating Task Type to
control
Units, Duartion, and Work will have trouble here. As I have frequented
this
forum in the last few months, I see so many users who would not have to
post
questions if they understood what went on behind the scenes when one of
the
Task Types is selected or changed.

 

[Dale Howard [MVP]]

davegb --

The "experts" in the group knew about the autolink feature, but didn't
consider it nearly as important as you do. I teach my students how to
handle the autolink situation WITHOUT changing the Options setting, and
guess what? They get along just fine. I simply think you overestimate the
importance of that one little feature. And I think the Project Summary Task
feature is WAY MORE important that you do. I think we'll need to "agree to
disagree" about this one. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Cole]

www.iil.com offers training for MS Project

davegb --

The "experts" in the group knew about the autolink feature, but didn't
consider it nearly as important as you do. I teach my students how to
handle the autolink situation WITHOUT changing the Options setting, and
guess what? They get along just fine. I simply think you overestimate the
importance of that one little feature. And I think the Project Summary Task
feature is WAY MORE important that you do. I think we'll need to "agree to
disagree" about this one. Thanks for sharing!

 

[davegb]

Dave,

I can't say anything about anyone else's motivation, but the reason I don't
care for the question is the way you state it. It affects the construction
and editing of schedules, not the way project calculates them. It is
important to be precise about such questions as the wrong question will
garner a wrong answer.

You forget - the wrong data will garner the wrong answer just as
easily. A false link in your schedule can have a huge affect on your
end date and change your critical path. Is that of no consequence? I
consider it a show-stopper, because I base a lot of important
decisions, like what to do first and what to do later, and where to put
key resource, to name only a couple, on this information. Maybe you
don't use the CP the same way I do.

Try this: turn the feature back on. Does project stil "do CPM scheduling
properly"? I'd contend it does, at least until you edit your schedule.

Yes, it does CPM scheduling properly, on the wrong data. Maybe you
haven't heard of the old Data Processing concept, GIGO? Garbage in,
garbage out. You can have the best program on the planet, but if the
data is bad, the product is bad. You're missing half the equation for
success in any process. You need a valid process AND VALID DATA to get
valid results.

Now try asking a different way. "What default settings should you turn off
immediately and why?". It is a much better question. In my opinion there is
more than just one setting...

My answer to your question is Autolink first. No, it does not change
how the software does its calculations, but it has the potential to
make them all wrong. If they're wrong, why bother to go to all this
trouble to make a CPM schedule if the CP you get isn't the real CP?

-Jack Dahlgren
http://zo-d.com/blog

..

 

[JackD]

You forget - the wrong data will garner the wrong answer just as
easily.

I don't forget that. I say it all the time.

A false link in your schedule can have a huge affect on your
end date and change your critical path. Is that of no consequence?

Certainly not.

I
consider it a show-stopper, because I base a lot of important
decisions, like what to do first and what to do later, and where to put
key resource, to name only a couple, on this information. Maybe you
don't use the CP the same way I do.


Yes, it does CPM scheduling properly, on the wrong data.

This is the key point. Your question says that this makes it do CPM
scheduling incorrectly. It doesn't say that it will corrupt your schedule
logic or anything like that. Autolink inserted or moved tasks has the
potential to make/break dependencies in schedule logic without people even
noticing that it happened. That is why it is bad.

Maybe you
haven't heard of the old Data Processing concept, GIGO? Garbage in,
garbage out. You can have the best program on the planet, but if the
data is bad, the product is bad. You're missing half the equation for
success in any process. You need a valid process AND VALID DATA to get
valid results.

And this setting is responsible for creating bad data, not for causing
project to do CPM scheduling process incorrectly.

My answer to your question is Autolink first.

That is a great answer.

No, it does not change
how the software does its calculations, but it has the potential to
make them all wrong. If they're wrong, why bother to go to all this
trouble to make a CPM schedule if the CP you get isn't the real CP?

Exactly.

Do you see my point about the right question?

-Jack Dahlgren

 

[davegb]

I don't forget that. I say it all the time.


Certainly not.


This is the key point. Your question says that this makes it do CPM
scheduling incorrectly. It doesn't say that it will corrupt your schedule
logic or anything like that. Autolink inserted or moved tasks has the
potential to make/break dependencies in schedule logic without people even
noticing that it happened. That is why it is bad.


And this setting is responsible for creating bad data, not for causing
project to do CPM scheduling process incorrectly.


That is a great answer.


Exactly.

Do you see my point about the right question?

-Jack Dahlgren

Sorry, took me a while to realize you're questioning my semantics, not
my idea. You're right, I should ask the question, "Which feature do you
have to turn off so that the linking in your file is not corrupted by
Project?". If they know that, they have a good shot at understanding
Project.

Thanks, Jack!

 

[JD]

Thanks, Jack!

No problem Dave. Glad to see you around helping out.

-Jack