Syncing categories across .mac

[Eric Schweitzer]

The update to Entourage with syncing and spotlight support is great. I would
like to thank all involved.

I have two computers (work and home) and use Entourage on both. Keeping
contacts and appointments in sync has been a major problem. I see that
categories are not synced to Address Book and iCal. Are the categories
synced to .mac? So, if I sync Entourage on both computers to .mac will the
categories copy over?

Thanks.

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

I have two computers (work and home) and use Entourage on both. Keeping
contacts and appointments in sync has been a major problem. I see that
categories are not synced to Address Book and iCal. Are the categories
synced to .mac? So, if I sync Entourage on both computers to .mac will the
categories copy over?

I would have to say: right now categories won't sync.
I posted this in a previous thread:

I had a similar problem with Exchange (sync doesn't sync categories
there either) and ended up using an AppleScript to write Entourage
categories to the custom field 8. This custom field doesn't not appear
in the System Address Book, so at this point, the script in question is
useless to you, but the original script can easily be modified for
anything you'd want. If you have nothing else in the Notes, you could
write the categories to notes instead (not an option for me - I would
need to write a parser to separate categories informations and the rest
of my notes).
The scripts I used are avialable here:
http://www.cortig.net/wordpress/?p=73

It should also be valid for .Mac. You could modify the scripts to put
the categories wherever you want and then run the second script to
reassign categories properly.

Corentin

 

[Paul Berkowitz]

The update to Entourage with syncing and spotlight support is great. I would
like to thank all involved.

I have two computers (work and home) and use Entourage on both. Keeping
contacts and appointments in sync has been a major problem. I see that
categories are not synced to Address Book and iCal. Are the categories
synced to .mac? So, if I sync Entourage on both computers to .mac will the
categories copy over?

No. No categories with SyncServices.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

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otherwise.

 

[Adam Cohen]

No. No categories with SyncServices.

I don't understand why this has to be. Other solutions (including the
sync scripts that the estimable Mr Berkowitz has produced for Entourage
- Address Book and Entourage - iCal synchronization) employ workable
solutions to this problem.

The MBU had to create an entirely new "conduit" for syncronization of
Entourage Notes; if that were possible, i would think a new conduit
exclusively for Entourage-to-Entourage syncing would be ideal, which
would capture every last little jot and tittle in Entourage and pass it
via .mac to a second copy running on another machine. Failing that, a
solution similar to those that already work would be aceptable.

As it stands, the loss of categories makes the new sync services
functionality virtually useless for me in terms of contacts and
calendar syncing. Thankfully, Paul's scripts serve the same perpose and
work reasonably well, AND maintain my categories!


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[Paul Berkowitz]

Thanks for your comments, Adam.

SyncServices _ought_ to have made my scripts obsolete: everything is much
more automatic, for sure. The trouble is that Apple's own apps - Address
Book and iCal, and .Mac - have such weird unorthodox implementations that
even where SyncServices itself allows for Entourage-compatible fields, they
don't make it over to AB and iCal.

In particular, neither Apple app knows anything about Categories. My scripts
use a common-sense sync of Entourage Primary Category (the one with the
color) to AB Groups and iCal calendars. It's not a perfect match (although
secondary categories are not exactly lost, because I notate them in the
Notes) because of the opposite containment structures (in Entourage, items
have a Categories list property; in Apple apps, calendars contain events as
elements), but it works how most people expect. Entourage SyncServices
couldn't do that, because SyncServices actually has a Categories schema that
is simply not used by the Apple apps, as well as "groups" and "calendars"
schemas not used by Entourage, and MS doesn't want to screw around (perhaps
some day they may well have multiple calendars too, like they already do for
Exchange calendars). They also don't want to mess things up for other apps
synching to SyncServices. So categories are simply lost. This is probably
worse in iCal, where SyncServices sync you to a single "Entourage" calendar:
there is no opportunity to have colored differentiations via separate
calendars corresponding to your Entourage categories.

And if you sync to a Palm using Missing Sync's conduits, the same will be
true there too. Therefore you lose precisely the main advantage of those
conduits for calendar - that they do sync categories for calendar events.
Missing Sync itself implemented the same correspondence that my scripts do
between a primary category (on the Palm) and an iCal calendar. But this
won't help you with Entourage synching, where every calendar event and task
on the Palm will have an "Entourage" category. So you'll actually _lose_
functionality with respect to Tasks, where Entourage's Palm conduit does
sync categories (as do my scripts too - the primary category).

And the same with custom fields, which my scripts sync to, using AB's
'related names' and other fields. Again - Entourage's custom fields, which
are application-wide, do not correspond with Address Book's, where each
contact can have its own labeled custom fields, so there might be thousands
of these in all. My scripts deal with this by requiring you to use the
same custom fields as in Entourage and will sync to those - otherwise they
notate any disconnected custom fields in the Entourage notes, no no info is
lost. The Entourage SyncServices can't do any of this (although I suspect
that they store Entourage custom field info just in case any other apps
might use or set up a correspondence to the same fields app-wide some day).

Finally, to make it work with outside devices using iSync, people will need
to buy the Missing Sync software ($40) to sync from SyncServices to outside
devices like Palms. Microsoft is not updating their own conduit. You already
have Missing Sync (as I do - but I'm still using v4.0.6 with the Entourage
Conduit), so you're ahead here. But you'll discover that it's very tricky -
and somewhat dangerous - to try to do a "Handheld Overwrites Desktop" sync,
since Apple have not provided for this in their APIs. Missing Sync have
added this as a "hidden" option in their newest beta 5.1, but it's dangerous
because it will wipe out all those Entourage-only fields, completely. You'll
lose the data - custom fields and ALL CATEGORIES - back in Entourage. Be
_very_ careful about using this one.

So - there are some incompatibilities. It depends on how much you care about
categories and custom fields. (I think there might be a few telephone fields
which go AWOL too.) You certainly get a more automatic sync - how synching
should be in an ideal world. But you do not get an ideal sync. My scripts
will honor your data and preferences far more absolutely, although it's more
trouble. Don't blame Microsoft much for these gaps: it's not really their
fault. They have chosen to honor Apple's schemas rather than mess about with
them. In due course, if and when Apple improve their schemas to accommodate
the rest of the world that uses categories and custom fields (and it really
does look as if they plan to), Entourage SyncServices will just be able to
plug into them directly. Had they used workarounds for now, it would be much
messier undoing them later. But, for now, my scripts will provide a more
intuitive sync with better correspondences and fidelity.

 

[BB]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. It helps to relief some of the
frustration I have felt regarding syncing.

A thought and a question:

Will Missing Sync handle Datebook / Calendar categories if you use the Palm
HotSync instead of Sync Services?

If so, then a way of keeping what is good is to sync the Palm through
HotSync and to sync to your mobile phone via iSync. Most phones (unless they
are smartphones) don't support categories anyway.

Bo

 

[Adam Cohen]

A typically detailed and thoughtful response from you, thanks Paul!

I still have one question that hasn't been addressed in your response,
however - why didn't MS simply write a new Entourage Contact and
Entourage Calendar conduit from scratch, as they obviously did for
Notes? That way, they could presumably accomodate EVERY Entourage
field, and there would be no issue of lost data (at least for those of
us using Entourage on multiple machines).

I get that this would likely take more time, and would work outside the
usual Apple Address Book/iCal system, and while this wouldn't be ideal,
it would IMO be better than what they've given us. It's a real shame,
because it seems that what's there with the current implementation
works well in the limited testing I've done. I can only hope they think
it's important enough to **fully** support synchronization rather than
let it go at this, but after dreaming of a solution that works
completely and relaibly in Entourage for years, I'm not going to hold
my breath...

Adam

Thanks for your comments, Adam.

SyncServices _ought_ to have made my scripts obsolete: everything is much
more automatic, for sure. The trouble is that Apple's own apps - Address
Book and iCal, and .Mac - have such weird unorthodox implementations that
even where SyncServices itself allows for Entourage-compatible fields, they
don't make it over to AB and iCal.

In particular, neither Apple app knows anything about Categories. My scripts
use a common-sense sync of Entourage Primary Category (the one with the
color) to AB Groups and iCal calendars. It's not a perfect match (although
secondary categories are not exactly lost, because I notate them in the
Notes) because of the opposite containment structures (in Entourage, items
have a Categories list property; in Apple apps, calendars contain events as
elements), but it works how most people expect. Entourage SyncServices
couldn't do that, because SyncServices actually has a Categories schema that
is simply not used by the Apple apps, as well as "groups" and "calendars"
schemas not used by Entourage, and MS doesn't want to screw around (perhaps
some day they may well have multiple calendars too, like they already do for
Exchange calendars). They also don't want to mess things up for other apps
synching to SyncServices. So categories are simply lost. This is probably
worse in iCal, where SyncServices sync you to a single "Entourage" calendar:
there is no opportunity to have colored differentiations via separate
calendars corresponding to your Entourage categories.

And if you sync to a Palm using Missing Sync's conduits, the same will be
true there too. Therefore you lose precisely the main advantage of those
conduits for calendar - that they do sync categories for calendar events.
Missing Sync itself implemented the same correspondence that my scripts do
between a primary category (on the Palm) and an iCal calendar. But this
won't help you with Entourage synching, where every calendar event and task
on the Palm will have an "Entourage" category. So you'll actually _lose_
functionality with respect to Tasks, where Entourage's Palm conduit does
sync categories (as do my scripts too - the primary category).

And the same with custom fields, which my scripts sync to, using AB's
'related names' and other fields. Again - Entourage's custom fields, which
are application-wide, do not correspond with Address Book's, where each
contact can have its own labeled custom fields, so there might be thousands
of these in all. My scripts deal with this by requiring you to use the
same custom fields as in Entourage and will sync to those - otherwise they
notate any disconnected custom fields in the Entourage notes, no no info is
lost. The Entourage SyncServices can't do any of this (although I suspect
that they store Entourage custom field info just in case any other apps
might use or set up a correspondence to the same fields app-wide some day).

Finally, to make it work with outside devices using iSync, people will need
to buy the Missing Sync software ($40) to sync from SyncServices to outside
devices like Palms. Microsoft is not updating their own conduit. You already
have Missing Sync (as I do - but I'm still using v4.0.6 with the Entourage
Conduit), so you're ahead here. But you'll discover that it's very tricky -
and somewhat dangerous - to try to do a "Handheld Overwrites Desktop" sync,
since Apple have not provided for this in their APIs. Missing Sync have
added this as a "hidden" option in their newest beta 5.1, but it's dangerous
because it will wipe out all those Entourage-only fields, completely. You'll
lose the data - custom fields and ALL CATEGORIES - back in Entourage. Be
_very_ careful about using this one.

So - there are some incompatibilities. It depends on how much you care about
categories and custom fields. (I think there might be a few telephone fields
which go AWOL too.) You certainly get a more automatic sync - how synching
should be in an ideal world. But you do not get an ideal sync. My scripts
will honor your data and preferences far more absolutely, although it's more
trouble. Don't blame Microsoft much for these gaps: it's not really their
fault. They have chosen to honor Apple's schemas rather than mess about with
them. In due course, if and when Apple improve their schemas to accommodate
the rest of the world that uses categories and custom fields (and it really
does look as if they plan to), Entourage SyncServices will just be able to
plug into them directly. Had they used workarounds for now, it would be much
messier undoing them later. But, for now, my scripts will provide a more
intuitive sync with better correspondences and fidelity.

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[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

I still have one question that hasn't been addressed in your response,
however - why didn't MS simply write a new Entourage Contact and
Entourage Calendar conduit from scratch, as they obviously did for
Notes? That way, they could presumably accomodate EVERY Entourage
field, and there would be no issue of lost data (at least for those of
us using Entourage on multiple machines).

I'm not 100% sure I'm following you. I'll try to answer though:
What the MacBU had to write was a "conduit" to the SyncService Database.
The SyncService database already supported Notes, they didn't have to
write anything from scratch there. What Apple was missing was an app to
properly display the Notes from the SyncService database, but the class
was already there.
The MacBU have no way of adding a new class or elements in a
pre-existing class. That's Apple's playground.

Corentin

 

[Geoffrey F. Green]

A typically detailed and thoughtful response from you, thanks Paul!

I still have one question that hasn't been addressed in your response,
however - why didn't MS simply write a new Entourage Contact and
Entourage Calendar conduit from scratch, as they obviously did for
Notes? That way, they could presumably accomodate EVERY Entourage
field, and there would be no issue of lost data (at least for those of
us using Entourage on multiple machines).

But then it's of much less utility. The data wouldn't be accessible in
any other application; you couldn't sync the data to your phone; you
couldn't sync it using Missing Sync to your Palm or PocketPC or
Blackberry; you could sync it between computers using .Mac, but you
couldn't access the data outside Entourage. Entourage could have done
*both* -- sync to the standard services, and create new Entourage
Contact and Entourage Calendar items, but if you consider both sets of
data "current" you would have a much more difficult time synchronizing
data into Entourage. Not to mention that would be a much more
challenging development project.

Their solution is not perfect, but it was a choice between perfect
sync and no use outside Entourage versus pretty good sync and
compatibility with a large number of phones, PDAs, and .Mac. And, if
Microsoft knows that Apple plans to improve the features of their
contact and address schemes in the future, there's even less reason
for Microsoft to build an incompatible solution that will be obsoleted.

All IMHO, of course.

- geoff

 

[Robert Barrimond]

Thanks for your comments, Adam.

SyncServices _ought_ to have made my scripts obsolete: everything is much
more automatic, for sure. The trouble is that Apple's own apps - Address
Book and iCal, and .Mac - have such weird unorthodox implementations that
even where SyncServices itself allows for Entourage-compatible fields, they
don't make it over to AB and iCal.

In particular, neither Apple app knows anything about Categories. My scripts
use a common-sense sync of Entourage Primary Category (the one with the
color) to AB Groups and iCal calendars. It's not a perfect match (although
secondary categories are not exactly lost, because I notate them in the
Notes) because of the opposite containment structures (in Entourage, items
have a Categories list property; in Apple apps, calendars contain events as
elements), but it works how most people expect. Entourage SyncServices
couldn't do that, because SyncServices actually has a Categories schema that
is simply not used by the Apple apps, as well as "groups" and "calendars"
schemas not used by Entourage, and MS doesn't want to screw around (perhaps
some day they may well have multiple calendars too, like they already do for
Exchange calendars). They also don't want to mess things up for other apps
synching to SyncServices. So categories are simply lost. This is probably
worse in iCal, where SyncServices sync you to a single "Entourage" calendar:
there is no opportunity to have colored differentiations via separate
calendars corresponding to your Entourage categories.

And if you sync to a Palm using Missing Sync's conduits, the same will be
true there too. Therefore you lose precisely the main advantage of those
conduits for calendar - that they do sync categories for calendar events.
Missing Sync itself implemented the same correspondence that my scripts do
between a primary category (on the Palm) and an iCal calendar. But this
won't help you with Entourage synching, where every calendar event and task
on the Palm will have an "Entourage" category. So you'll actually _lose_
functionality with respect to Tasks, where Entourage's Palm conduit does
sync categories (as do my scripts too - the primary category).

And the same with custom fields, which my scripts sync to, using AB's
'related names' and other fields. Again - Entourage's custom fields, which
are application-wide, do not correspond with Address Book's, where each
contact can have its own labeled custom fields, so there might be thousands
of these in all. My scripts deal with this by requiring you to use the
same custom fields as in Entourage and will sync to those - otherwise they
notate any disconnected custom fields in the Entourage notes, no no info is
lost. The Entourage SyncServices can't do any of this (although I suspect
that they store Entourage custom field info just in case any other apps
might use or set up a correspondence to the same fields app-wide some day).

Finally, to make it work with outside devices using iSync, people will need
to buy the Missing Sync software ($40) to sync from SyncServices to outside
devices like Palms. Microsoft is not updating their own conduit. You already
have Missing Sync (as I do - but I'm still using v4.0.6 with the Entourage
Conduit), so you're ahead here. But you'll discover that it's very tricky -
and somewhat dangerous - to try to do a "Handheld Overwrites Desktop" sync,
since Apple have not provided for this in their APIs. Missing Sync have
added this as a "hidden" option in their newest beta 5.1, but it's dangerous
because it will wipe out all those Entourage-only fields, completely. You'll
lose the data - custom fields and ALL CATEGORIES - back in Entourage. Be
_very_ careful about using this one.

So - there are some incompatibilities. It depends on how much you care about
categories and custom fields. (I think there might be a few telephone fields
which go AWOL too.) You certainly get a more automatic sync - how synching
should be in an ideal world. But you do not get an ideal sync. My scripts
will honor your data and preferences far more absolutely, although it's more
trouble. Don't blame Microsoft much for these gaps: it's not really their
fault. They have chosen to honor Apple's schemas rather than mess about with
them. In due course, if and when Apple improve their schemas to accommodate
the rest of the world that uses categories and custom fields (and it really
does look as if they plan to), Entourage SyncServices will just be able to
plug into them directly. Had they used workarounds for now, it would be much
messier undoing them later. But, for now, my scripts will provide a more
intuitive sync with better correspondences and fidelity.

As a professional married to another profession who only want to share part
of their respective calendars, categories is an important issue so I'll be
waiting for better syncing across .Mac.

Who wants to bet that the contact schemas will be updated in Leopard (or
whatever cat the next OS X will be)? ;-)

For once, I think Microsoft made the right call here. Limited but
extensible functionality that can grow as the space needs it. Speaking of
schemas, I hope the next version of Entourage can handle more than two
addresses and middle names. Those of us with them would like some respect!

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

For once, I think Microsoft made the right call here. Limited but
extensible functionality that can grow as the space needs it. Speaking of
schemas, I hope the next version of Entourage can handle more than two
addresses and middle names. Those of us with them would like some respect!

I couldn't agree more!!!
(and sync pictures toSyncSerivces).

Corentin