Black not registration color

  • Thread starter Tony Toews [MVP]
  • Start date

T

Tony Toews [MVP]

Folks

I have a client sending a catalog off to a printing company via PDF.
This is the first time they are trying to do it themselves using
Publisher 2007.

As part of their most recent exchange with the printing company they
received the following.

"The borders and splash borders are to be Black not registration
color."

We have no idea what that means. I don't see anything quite relevant
in searching but maybe I don't know what to search for.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
 
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E

Elmo P. Shagnasty

Tony Toews said:
Folks

I have a client sending a catalog off to a printing company via PDF.
This is the first time they are trying to do it themselves using
Publisher 2007.

As part of their most recent exchange with the printing company they
received the following.

"The borders and splash borders are to be Black not registration
color."

We have no idea what that means. I don't see anything quite relevant
in searching but maybe I don't know what to search for.

Tony
Registration color is 100C 100M 100Y 100K. This is so that when the
plates are generated, that element is on every plate.

The printing company wants 0C 0M 0Y 100K.
 
T

Tony Toews [MVP]

Elmo P. Shagnasty said:
Registration color is 100C 100M 100Y 100K. This is so that when the
plates are generated, that element is on every plate.

The printing company wants 0C 0M 0Y 100K.
So what does that mean in the context of Publisher? As in what
properties or what should we be changing in Publisher to change the
borders and splash borders to black.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
 
T

Terje M

Tony Toews said:
So what does that mean in the context of Publisher? As in what
properties or what should we be changing in Publisher to change the
borders and splash borders to black.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
.
Sorry, but this is not possible in Publisher.
Text would (and should) be 0C 0M 0Y 100K, but lines and borders are "images"
and would end up as 100C 100M 100Y 100K.

In print they would look like true black, so I do not know why the printshop
bothers.
 
E

Elmo P. Shagnasty

So what does that mean in the context of Publisher? As in what
properties or what should we be changing in Publisher to change the
borders and splash borders to black.

Tony
--
Sorry, but this is not possible in Publisher.
Text would (and should) be 0C 0M 0Y 100K, but lines and borders are "images"
and would end up as 100C 100M 100Y 100K.

In print they would look like true black, so I do not know why the printshop
bothers.[/QUOTE]

400% ink does not look like true black...

It takes work for the print shop to change what you've given them, to
make it useful for press. They bill for that work.
 
R

Rob Giordano [MS MVP]

sidebar comment;

I've always had problems with Publisher and black.

Take a jpg image with a black background and lay it next to a filled black
shape 0,0,0,100 and they will be visibly different when printed (and
different on screen if you look real close).



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression Web
 
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T

Tony Toews [MVP]

Sorry, but this is not possible in Publisher.
Text would (and should) be 0C 0M 0Y 100K, but lines and borders are "images"
and would end up as 100C 100M 100Y 100K.
Yowzer. I find this to be an interesting weakness of the Publisher
program then.

What alternatives would you folks suggest then? The printing company
likes using InDesign. The client would like to do as much of the work
themselves as possible as they are a low budget not profit
organization.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
 
E

Elmo P. Shagnasty

Sorry, but this is not possible in Publisher.
Text would (and should) be 0C 0M 0Y 100K, but lines and borders are "images"
and would end up as 100C 100M 100Y 100K.
Yowzer. I find this to be an interesting weakness of the Publisher
program then.[/QUOTE]

The root of this weakness, which has been around forever, also affects
many other aspects of the program--which leads it to be the bane of
professional printers everywhere.

Publisher is an RGB program at its core, and is really meant to print to
local home inkjet printers. Using it to do work that is destined for
professional commercial print is akin to having a driver's license and
then claiming you can also fly a 747 to Tokyo.



What alternatives would you folks suggest then? The printing company
likes using InDesign. The client would like to do as much of the work
themselves as possible as they are a low budget not profit
organization.
There are places where non-profits can buy good software cheap:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=non+profit+software+discounts&aq
=0&aqi=g10&oq=non+profit+software&fp=b36c7832dbb01be6

I've heard good things about Tech Soup; Adobe CS3 Design Premium (!) is
only $136, and you can step up to CS4 (if you have the computer
horsepower) for only a few bucks more.

Now, InDesign takes some time to learn. Don't skimp on that.

If you want fairly easy like Publisher, and if you have a Mac, you can
use Pages to do probably everything you'd need.


THAT ALL BEING SAID: Publisher stuff *can* work great in a DIGITAL
commercial print environment, rather than traditional offset. I would
heartily recommend that the first step would be to take some of their
Publisher work and find someone with some sort of Xerox digital press--a
5000/7000/8000 or even iGen--and get test prints made.

If it fails, no real loss--you're back to where you were. But it might
work absolutely great. That's because a digital press can ingest the
RGB directly and do what it needs to do to come out on the digital
press. That's different than what happens in a traditional offset
workflow.

And there are those shops out there that have defied the "we hate
Publisher" trend and have come to specialize in Publisher work. I'd say
if you found one of those that ALSO prints on digital presses, you'd
have found a winner of a vendor.
 
T

Tony Toews [MVP]

Elmo P. Shagnasty said:
THAT ALL BEING SAID: Publisher stuff *can* work great in a DIGITAL
commercial print environment, rather than traditional offset. I would
heartily recommend that the first step would be to take some of their
Publisher work and find someone with some sort of Xerox digital press--a
5000/7000/8000 or even iGen--and get test prints made.

If it fails, no real loss--you're back to where you were. But it might
work absolutely great. That's because a digital press can ingest the
RGB directly and do what it needs to do to come out on the digital
press. That's different than what happens in a traditional offset
workflow.

And there are those shops out there that have defied the "we hate
Publisher" trend and have come to specialize in Publisher work. I'd say
if you found one of those that ALSO prints on digital presses, you'd
have found a winner of a vendor.
Interesting. Yes, they've found a publisher in another city that does
take Publisher files.

Thanks for reminding me about TechSoup. I'd forgotten about them.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
 
T

Tony Toews [MVP]

Why would you specify x-no-archive: yes on your posting?

Tony
The root of this weakness, which has been around forever, also affects
many other aspects of the program--which leads it to be the bane of
professional printers everywhere.

Publisher is an RGB program at its core, and is really meant to print to
local home inkjet printers. Using it to do work that is destined for
professional commercial print is akin to having a driver's license and
then claiming you can also fly a 747 to Tokyo.





There are places where non-profits can buy good software cheap:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=non+profit+software+discounts&aq
=0&aqi=g10&oq=non+profit+software&fp=b36c7832dbb01be6

I've heard good things about Tech Soup; Adobe CS3 Design Premium (!) is
only $136, and you can step up to CS4 (if you have the computer
horsepower) for only a few bucks more.

Now, InDesign takes some time to learn. Don't skimp on that.

If you want fairly easy like Publisher, and if you have a Mac, you can
use Pages to do probably everything you'd need.


THAT ALL BEING SAID: Publisher stuff *can* work great in a DIGITAL
commercial print environment, rather than traditional offset. I would
heartily recommend that the first step would be to take some of their
Publisher work and find someone with some sort of Xerox digital press--a
5000/7000/8000 or even iGen--and get test prints made.

If it fails, no real loss--you're back to where you were. But it might
work absolutely great. That's because a digital press can ingest the
RGB directly and do what it needs to do to come out on the digital
press. That's different than what happens in a traditional offset
workflow.

And there are those shops out there that have defied the "we hate
Publisher" trend and have come to specialize in Publisher work. I'd say
if you found one of those that ALSO prints on digital presses, you'd
have found a winner of a vendor.
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
 
J

JoAnn Paules

Some people do that with all of their posts. Go figure.

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]
Tech Editor for "Microsoft Publisher 2007 For Dummies"
 
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M

mattbeals

Some people do that with all of their posts. Go figure.

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]
Tech Editor for "Microsoft Publisher 2007 For Dummies"



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote:
Why would you specify x-no-archive: yes on your posting?
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages -http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog -http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
 updated seehttp://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Managerhttp://www.granitefleet.com/
If the printer is doing things right this problem can either be
eliminated or mitigated by using easily available tools. Someone
commented about 100,100,100,100 blacks. That's a recipie for disaster.
That is 400% ink coverage which is way too high. Ink coverage
shouldn't exceed 300 to 320 for most any reason with general offset
printing. A "rich black" like what is being referred to should be
something like 40 cyan, 30 magenta, 30 yellow 100 black at most. Every
printer has their own idea of what a rich black should be so you have
to ask. Registration color is a special circumstance color, it is not
100 C,M,Y & K. Registration is a color that appears on all color
plates (including spot colors). Registration and 100 CMYK should never
be used in the art itself. Never. Ever. Really, never...

The problem that printers have with these borders is that Publisher
keeps everything in RGB. Printers don't like RGB for some reason. RGB
grays and RGB blacks pose a particularly difficult time for printers
for some reason. What happens is if the RGB blacks in Publisher are
converted to CMYK, the don't come out as solid black generally
speaking. There are plenty of tools that the printer has already or
has access to that fixes this. For example; there is an "auto black"
in Publisher and Office. That color is 13R, 13G and 13B (13,13,13).
When that gets converted to black and white it usually gets converted
to 87% black, not solid black. When someone uses 0R, 0G and 0B (0,0,0)
and converts it to CMYK what you usually end up with is something like
68C, 38M, 36Y and 90K. Which is wrong from a printing stand point, but
following the logic of converting RGB to CMYK it is absolutely
correct.

So there are tools available to fix all this if the printer invests a
few minutes to find them or learning to use them. Find a printer that
takes Publisher files direct or will take an RGB PDF.
 
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S

Shawna

Publisher 2003 and newer have tools available to prepare a document for
commercial printing. When starting a new document choose Tools/Commercial
Printing Tools/ Color Printing. Then pick the button in front of Process
Colors (CMYK) and say OK. Now the colors you have to choose from in Publisher
are all CMYK. Black will automatically be C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100. You can even
verify this by hovering your mouse over the color in the swatch palette and
it tells you the formula that makes up that color. Make sure any photos you
place in your document are converted to CMYK in Photoshop or other photo
editing software before you insert them. Once your design is complete, either
print a PDF or use Publisher's "Publish(or Save) as PDF" from the File menu
(you may have to download the free Add-in for this option). Now you will have
a printer friendly file to send out. Remember to create and then include
bleeds in your PDF.

-Shawna

mattbeals said:
Some people do that with all of their posts. Go figure.

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]
Tech Editor for "Microsoft Publisher 2007 For Dummies"



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote:
Why would you specify x-no-archive: yes on your posting?

The root of this weakness, which has been around forever, also affects
many other aspects of the program--which leads it to be the bane of
professional printers everywhere.
Publisher is an RGB program at its core, and is really meant to print to
local home inkjet printers. Using it to do work that is destined for
professional commercial print is akin to having a driver's license and
then claiming you can also fly a 747 to Tokyo.
What alternatives would you folks suggest then? The printing company
likes using InDesign. The client would like to do as much of the work
themselves as possible as they are a low budget not profit
organization.
There are places where non-profits can buy good software cheap:

I've heard good things about Tech Soup; Adobe CS3 Design Premium (!) is
only $136, and you can step up to CS4 (if you have the computer
horsepower) for only a few bucks more.
Now, InDesign takes some time to learn. Don't skimp on that.
If you want fairly easy like Publisher, and if you have a Mac, you can
use Pages to do probably everything you'd need.
THAT ALL BEING SAID: Publisher stuff *can* work great in a DIGITAL
commercial print environment, rather than traditional offset. I would
heartily recommend that the first step would be to take some of their
Publisher work and find someone with some sort of Xerox digital press--a
5000/7000/8000 or even iGen--and get test prints made.
If it fails, no real loss--you're back to where you were. But it might
work absolutely great. That's because a digital press can ingest the
RGB directly and do what it needs to do to come out on the digital
press. That's different than what happens in a traditional offset
workflow.
And there are those shops out there that have defied the "we hate
Publisher" trend and have come to specialize in Publisher work. I'd say
if you found one of those that ALSO prints on digital presses, you'd
have found a winner of a vendor.
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages -http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog -http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated seehttp://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Managerhttp://www.granitefleet.com/
If the printer is doing things right this problem can either be
eliminated or mitigated by using easily available tools. Someone
commented about 100,100,100,100 blacks. That's a recipie for disaster.
That is 400% ink coverage which is way too high. Ink coverage
shouldn't exceed 300 to 320 for most any reason with general offset
printing. A "rich black" like what is being referred to should be
something like 40 cyan, 30 magenta, 30 yellow 100 black at most. Every
printer has their own idea of what a rich black should be so you have
to ask. Registration color is a special circumstance color, it is not
100 C,M,Y & K. Registration is a color that appears on all color
plates (including spot colors). Registration and 100 CMYK should never
be used in the art itself. Never. Ever. Really, never...

The problem that printers have with these borders is that Publisher
keeps everything in RGB. Printers don't like RGB for some reason. RGB
grays and RGB blacks pose a particularly difficult time for printers
for some reason. What happens is if the RGB blacks in Publisher are
converted to CMYK, the don't come out as solid black generally
speaking. There are plenty of tools that the printer has already or
has access to that fixes this. For example; there is an "auto black"
in Publisher and Office. That color is 13R, 13G and 13B (13,13,13).
When that gets converted to black and white it usually gets converted
to 87% black, not solid black. When someone uses 0R, 0G and 0B (0,0,0)
and converts it to CMYK what you usually end up with is something like
68C, 38M, 36Y and 90K. Which is wrong from a printing stand point, but
following the logic of converting RGB to CMYK it is absolutely
correct.

So there are tools available to fix all this if the printer invests a
few minutes to find them or learning to use them. Find a printer that
takes Publisher files direct or will take an RGB PDF.
.
 

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