CSS vs. Frames

[bejewell]

I am trying to redesign my firm's web site, but I'm not sure what the best
FrontPage method is to use - CSS or Frames? I want the top part with
graphics to remain the same on all pages, but I need to include a main menu
on the left side of the page with a main menu to the right. The main menu
will need to expand and contract to show sub-menus.

I am more familiar with Frames and would require some serious self-training
if I were to use CSS, but I want to choose the method that will work best for
my site and my users. I am not sure that Frames are the best way to go,
especially considering that I will need to incorporate dropdown or pop out
menus.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - I'd like to weigh all of
the pros and cons before deciding.

 

[JoeM]

You can do some of this with frames, but remember that and floating menus
will not float over frames.
Personally I would use both.

 

[Murray]

This is not a binary choice. Asking if CSS or Frames is like asking Fish or
Bicycles.

Frames are almost never the optimal choice for layout.

I want the top part with
graphics to remain the same on all pages

Most people who say this a) don't have a good reason why, or b) give reasons
that are urban legend, and misinformation.

I ... would require some serious self-training
if I were to use CSS

Yes.

In the absence of *real* reasons for using frames, flat pages are always the
best choice.

 

[MD Websunlimited]

Hi Bejewell,

Header
------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
| Main Area
|
------------------------------------------------
Footer

Use CSS tableless or Table based design

Frames are not a good idea

 

[bejewell]

I appreciate your response, but still have many questions...see below. As a
beginner, I'm reallyjust trying to get a sense of pros and cons, so any
specifics you can offer would be great.

This is not a binary choice. Asking if CSS or Frames is like asking Fish or
Bicycles.

I realize they are very different choices, and clearly I am no expert -
which is why I asked the question in the first place. Can you give me more
details?

Frames are almost never the optimal choice for layout.

Why not?

Most people who say this a) don't have a good reason why, or b) give reasons
that are urban legend, and misinformation.

My "good reason" for including the same top portion on all pages is that my
superiors have told me this is what they want. Whether it makes sense or
not, this is what I've been asked to do.

But I am curious what you would suggest I do instead? It seems that every
web site I've seen has this sort of structure (including the Microsoft site
we are on). Give me a better option and I'll pitch it to the bosses.

Yes.

Any more guidance? Like where I can train myself on CSS, if this is the
route I choose to follow?

In the absence of *real* reasons for using frames, flat pages are always the
best choice.

Again, why?

 

[bejewell]

Why are frames not a good idea? Everyone keeps saying this, but I don't
understand what the problem is. At this point, frames seem like the easier
option for me, since I understand their structure and they require very
little coding (which I am not great with).

I have tried laying out my page as a table, but I have all kinds of issues
with the rows resizing themselves, etc. Assuming I can resolves this issue,
can I create a page with tables and then save that page as a CSS, then apply
it to all pages I create from there? So far I've had no luck with that,
either. THe only elements I have been able to apply to the rest of my pages
are the background color and fonts. How to apply an entire table?

Sorry I am so unclear on all of this, but I've always just let FrontPage do
the coding for me and I know NOTHING about CSS.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Murray]

The reason for using or not using frames should be based on a) your site's
needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that frames
can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
visitors as casual users of the site.

I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
than they solve.
Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you are
prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to use
frames, then by all means use them.

As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
potential problems can be found on these two links -

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/

Read those links and see if you can get an overview of why they are usually
bad for the visitor and in the long run, bad for the developer, too.

 

[Bob Lehmann]

but I don't understand what the problem is.
Two things...
1. You are contradicting yourself.
2. Easier doesn't mean correct.
Boss - I know I said that I wanted the same header in all the pages, but now
I've decided that our Contact page header should be a little different.

Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he clicks on
it he goes to our Home Page

Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he clicks on
it part of our site is missing

Bob Lehmann

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

In all likelyhood daBoss probably doesn't even know what a frame is...show
him a page with a top banner, a side nav and a bottom include the same on
all pages and he'll probably think thats what he wanted.

Besides...it's easier to obtain forgiveness than permission.


| >> but I don't understand what the problem is.
| >> easier option for me, since I understand their structure
|
| Two things...
| 1. You are contradicting yourself.
| 2. Easier doesn't mean correct.
|
| >> what the problem is
| Boss - I know I said that I wanted the same header in all the pages, but
now
| I've decided that our Contact page header should be a little different.
|
| Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he clicks
on
| it he goes to our Home Page
|
| Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he clicks
on
| it part of our site is missing
|
| Bob Lehmann
|
| | > Why are frames not a good idea? Everyone keeps saying this, but I don't
| > understand what the problem is. At this point, frames seem like the
| easier
| > option for me, since I understand their structure and they require very
| > little coding (which I am not great with).
| >
| > I have tried laying out my page as a table, but I have all kinds of
issues
| > with the rows resizing themselves, etc. Assuming I can resolves this
| issue,
| > can I create a page with tables and then save that page as a CSS, then
| apply
| > it to all pages I create from there? So far I've had no luck with that,
| > either. THe only elements I have been able to apply to the rest of my
| pages
| > are the background color and fonts. How to apply an entire table?
| >
| > Sorry I am so unclear on all of this, but I've always just let FrontPage
| do
| > the coding for me and I know NOTHING about CSS.
| >
| > Thanks for your help!
| >
| > "MD Websunlimited" wrote:
| >
| > > Hi Bejewell,
| > >
| > > Header
| > > ------------------------------------------------
| > > |
| > > |
| > > |
| > > | Main Area
| > > |
| > > ------------------------------------------------
| > > Footer
| > >
| > > Use CSS tableless or Table based design
| > >
| > > Frames are not a good idea
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > > --
| > > Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97 - '02
| > > http://www.websunlimited.com
| > > FrontPage Add-in
| > >
| > >
| | > > >I am trying to redesign my firm's web site, but I'm not sure what the
| best
| > > > FrontPage method is to use - CSS or Frames? I want the top part
with
| > > > graphics to remain the same on all pages, but I need to include a
main
| menu
| > > > on the left side of the page with a main menu to the right. The
main
| menu
| > > > will need to expand and contract to show sub-menus.
| > > >
| > > > I am more familiar with Frames and would require some serious
| self-training
| > > > if I were to use CSS, but I want to choose the method that will work
| best for
| > > > my site and my users. I am not sure that Frames are the best way to
| go,
| > > > especially considering that I will need to incorporate dropdown or
pop
| out
| > > > menus.
| > > >
| > > > Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - I'd like to
weigh
| all of
| > > > the pros and cons before deciding.
| > >
| > >
| > >
|
|

 

[Bob Lehmann]

In all likelyhood daBoss probably doesn't even know what a frame is
The Boss doesn't need to know what a frame is. That's why poor design
decisions up front almost always bite you in the ass later on.

I didn't know that my Pinto would blow up if someone rear-ended me, but it
does. And, it wasn't because I didn't know, or needed to know, anything
about Pintos.
When he wants to change the header on just one page, all that matters to him
is that the header is different.

The OP has made a poor design decision, based on nothing except it being
"easier" that will, in all likelyhood, bite him in the ass when daBoss
thinks up something new.

Bob Lehmann

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

Hah...my brother had a Pinto...we installed a 8x8" wooden bumper on the
rear. We never could get that POS to blow up, no matter how hard we tried.


| >> In all likelyhood daBoss probably doesn't even know what a frame is
| The Boss doesn't need to know what a frame is. That's why poor design
| decisions up front almost always bite you in the ass later on.
|
| I didn't know that my Pinto would blow up if someone rear-ended me, but it
| does. And, it wasn't because I didn't know, or needed to know, anything
| about Pintos.
|
| >> show him a page with a top banner
| When he wants to change the header on just one page, all that matters to
him
| is that the header is different.
|
| The OP has made a poor design decision, based on nothing except it being
| "easier" that will, in all likelyhood, bite him in the ass when daBoss
| thinks up something new.
|
| Bob Lehmann
|
| | > In all likelyhood daBoss probably doesn't even know what a frame
is...show
| > him a page with a top banner, a side nav and a bottom include the same
on
| > all pages and he'll probably think thats what he wanted.
| >
| > Besides...it's easier to obtain forgiveness than permission.
| >
| >
| > | > | >> but I don't understand what the problem is.
| > | >> easier option for me, since I understand their structure
| > |
| > | Two things...
| > | 1. You are contradicting yourself.
| > | 2. Easier doesn't mean correct.
| > |
| > | >> what the problem is
| > | Boss - I know I said that I wanted the same header in all the pages,
but
| > now
| > | I've decided that our Contact page header should be a little
different.
| > |
| > | Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he
| clicks
| > on
| > | it he goes to our Home Page
| > |
| > | Boss - Our biggest client Bookmarked our Product Page, but when he
| clicks
| > on
| > | it part of our site is missing
| > |
| > | Bob Lehmann
| > |
| > | | > | > Why are frames not a good idea? Everyone keeps saying this, but I
| don't
| > | > understand what the problem is. At this point, frames seem like the
| > | easier
| > | > option for me, since I understand their structure and they require
| very
| > | > little coding (which I am not great with).
| > | >
| > | > I have tried laying out my page as a table, but I have all kinds of
| > issues
| > | > with the rows resizing themselves, etc. Assuming I can resolves
this
| > | issue,
| > | > can I create a page with tables and then save that page as a CSS,
then
| > | apply
| > | > it to all pages I create from there? So far I've had no luck with
| that,
| > | > either. THe only elements I have been able to apply to the rest of
my
| > | pages
| > | > are the background color and fonts. How to apply an entire table?
| > | >
| > | > Sorry I am so unclear on all of this, but I've always just let
| FrontPage
| > | do
| > | > the coding for me and I know NOTHING about CSS.
| > | >
| > | > Thanks for your help!
| > | >
| > | > "MD Websunlimited" wrote:
| > | >
| > | > > Hi Bejewell,
| > | > >
| > | > > Header
| > | > > ------------------------------------------------
| > | > > |
| > | > > |
| > | > > |
| > | > > | Main Area
| > | > > |
| > | > > ------------------------------------------------
| > | > > Footer
| > | > >
| > | > > Use CSS tableless or Table based design
| > | > >
| > | > > Frames are not a good idea
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > --
| > | > > Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97 - '02
| > | > > http://www.websunlimited.com
| > | > > FrontPage Add-in
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | | > | > > >I am trying to redesign my firm's web site, but I'm not sure what
| the
| > | best
| > | > > > FrontPage method is to use - CSS or Frames? I want the top part
| > with
| > | > > > graphics to remain the same on all pages, but I need to include
a
| > main
| > | menu
| > | > > > on the left side of the page with a main menu to the right. The
| > main
| > | menu
| > | > > > will need to expand and contract to show sub-menus.
| > | > > >
| > | > > > I am more familiar with Frames and would require some serious
| > | self-training
| > | > > > if I were to use CSS, but I want to choose the method that will
| work
| > | best for
| > | > > > my site and my users. I am not sure that Frames are the best
way
| to
| > | go,
| > | > > > especially considering that I will need to incorporate dropdown
or
| > pop
| > | out
| > | > > > menus.
| > | > > >
| > | > > > Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - I'd like to
| > weigh
| > | all of
| > | > > > the pros and cons before deciding.
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

bejewell,

First of all, go to the links that were recommended, or Google "frames are
evil" and read up on the results.

Why not?

Basically, frames split your page into "mini pages". A common use is to put
the menu in one frame and the content into the other. But, what happens if
someone comes across only the main page? They'll view the page without
knowing how to navigate the site. Framed pages can become a problem when
bookmarking and especially when printing. Also, search engines treat framed
pages differently and may not index framed pages as easily, causing poor
search results.

This was also my dilemma. A site that I run (www.sayatnova.com) used to be
in 3 frames, with the top nav bar in a frame by itsself. Then one day I
happened to do some Google searches to see how the site was indexed. I was
surprised to find that many times, just the main page or another page came
up in the results. When I clicked on it, only that page came up, with no
left frame and no nav bar. How would they navigate the site? Today, the menu
has been incorporated into the main page. I'm still trying to remove the
left side frame while retaining the site's look. It's not as easy as it
seems.

My "good reason" for including the same top portion on all pages is that
my
superiors have told me this is what they want. Whether it makes sense or
not, this is what I've been asked to do.

But it *can* be achieved without frames. It's a little more work , but the
site will ultimately become easier to navigate, although right now you may
think otherwise. I used to think the same way.

However, frames and CSS are not mutually exclusive. You can use both
together. CSS is about styling and layout. Initially frames may seem more
convenient (which they are) but in the long run, they cause more problems.

Read up on this here: http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

Hope this clarifies things a bit :>)

 

[Trevor L.]

This was also my dilemma. A site that I run (www.sayatnova.com) used
to be in 3 frames, with the top nav bar in a frame by itsself. Then
one day I happened to do some Google searches to see how the site was
indexed. I was surprised to find that many times, just the main page
or another page came up in the results. When I clicked on it, only
that page came up, with no left frame and no nav bar. How would they
navigate the site? Today, the menu has been incorporated into the
main page. I'm still trying to remove the left side frame while
retaining the site's look. It's not as easy as it seems.

Viken,
I have read all the arguments (well, most on this NG) and in particular I
know Murray is against frames, but I am still dragging my feet in redoing my
site

However, just to throw in a red herring, perhaps.

To redirect from a frame to the main site, add this to the body of each
frame
<body onload = "detect()">

Include a standard JS file in each frame, say
<script type="text/javascript" src="scripts/external.js"></script>

In external.js, add this
function detect()
{
if (parent.location.href == window.location.href)
parent.location.href = "index.html"
}

If necessary, change index.html to whatever your home page is,
e,g, index.htm, default.html etc.,

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

Wow! Ask and you shall receive :>) I've always wondered how to redirect
pages outside the frame to the main frames page. Now I know!

The only weakness? If someone has turned Javascript off in their browser,
that won't work :>) However, it's still worth using.

Personally I don't think frames are that evil, but I concede that frameless
designs are better. I just don't have a vehement dislike for them. Mention
frames in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html and they practically lynch
you! :>)

 

[Windsun]

Frames are basically evil. They make things relatively easy in some ways,
but in the long run can cause far more problems than they solve. That is why
almost no recent professional website has them.

 

[Ronx]

One problem there is that when I find a page I want on Google, and go
to it, I end up on the Home page - and then have to search the site
again to find which link goes to the page I actually want.
Frustrating?
Search http://irt.org There is a JavaScript there that will take
you to the chosen page, and wrap the frames around it.
IMO, too much trouble, and useless with JavaScript turned off (some
stats show 10% of users have no JavaScript example
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp [halfway down the
page])

 

[Murray]

Johnny Carson used to describe his recurring nightmare of driving on the 405
in his Audi 5000 behind a Pinto....

For those too young to remember, Johnny Carson was Jay Leno's mentor.

Audi 5000 had sudden acceleration problems.

Pinto was a bomb in so many ways....

 

[Murray]

This proves the statement that once you commit to frames, you also commit to
a never-ending succession of benign or obnoxious javascript hacks to fix
various user issues with them. If you are not javascript friendly, you are
just up a creek. If you are, your frames become more and more encumbered by
one hack after another, sort of like a tumor growing maliciously in the
code, NONE of which work properly in a browser with javascript disabled, and
all of which cause maintenance problems with unweildy pages.

The list of things that require such javascript when using frames is almost
endless. The list of things that require such javascript in flat pages is
quite short - there are none.

 

[bejewell]

What I mean by "easier" is that I have used frames before and will not
require a lot of self-training in order to use them. I have nevr used CSS
and am still not entirely sure how it works, so I would have to spend a lot
of time online trying to figure it out before I could even get started on the
site (and I wouldn't even know where to begin). The extra effort and time
may be worth it in the end, but that's why I asked for pros and cons.

It will take some convincing to sell an alternative to frames to my boss (he
also has only used frames, and also may not be willing to commit to so much
training time for me)...so the more I know the move convincingly I can make
my argument.

This is all a learning experience for me, so I really appreciate everyone's
input...I realize my questions may seem obvious to the experts, but you can't
learn without asking, right?

 

[Windsun]

You don't NEED to use CSS. You can make a perfectly fine website without it.
But that has nothing to do with FRAMES. Frames and CSS have NOTHING to do
with each other.

Frames, to put it bluntly, suck badly. There is no reason to ever design a
site with frames that I can think of.

And you can always add CSS later, or just to some things - like simple test
formatting - in CSS quite easily.

But fixing a broken frame site can be a total nightmare, not to mention all
the other disadvantages which others have mentioned.

What exactly, do you think you get from frames that you cannot get
otherwise?