Your top posting is just fine. Generally speaking, I would not worry
about front matter at all until the main document is complete. Your TOC
can be generated automatically based on your headings once you've
finished the document. If you want to make a list of topics you want to
write about, by all means keep such a list (in OneNote or Notepad or in
the document itself), but don't try to make a TOC out of it.
By default, when you have only a single section in a document, the Page
Number Format is set at "Continue from previous section." The reason for
this is that, when you create new sections, they will replicate the
settings in the existing section. If you set a "Start at" number, then
every new section will start with that number. In your case, as long as
you have just the two sections, that's actually what you want, but (a)
it would still be better to start the first section with "Continue from
previous section" (since that's the Word default), and (b) if you add
additional section breaks in your main document, be aware that you'll
need to change the Page Number Format so that every section doesn't
restart at 1.
I'm not sure what Insert Blank Page may do in Word 2007, but I would
avoid using it. Word 2007 gives the appearance of making things easy to
do, but often that makes them harder to undo. It is much better for you
to have a firm grasp on what you're doing (and why) and to retain
control over the formatting by doing things manually (and that means
inserting page and section breaks as YOU choose). Whenever you need a
page that doesn't have a page number on it, and that page follows one
that is numbered, you will have to do one of several things:
1. If you have an odd page that needs a blank back side (that is a
numbered recto and blank verso), then you can insert an Odd Page section
break; Word will begin the next section on an odd page and insert a
completely blank even page before it.
2. The first page in a section can be unnumbered (or numbered in a
different place) if you enable "Different First Page" for that section
and omit the page number from the header/footer.
3. You can omit numbering or put the numbers in a different place on odd
and even pages in a section if you enable "Different Odd and Even." Note
that this setting will affect the entire document, whereas you can
enable "Different First Page" for specific sections.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
Suzanne--
If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway,
let me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of
shape over the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom
post" you had to fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom
before you posted.
The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next
page is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I
understand you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a
number whether it shows up or not.
Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso,
and pace [someone].
I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to
you:
"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice
"Start at" or continue from previous section."
At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have
chosen the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio
button which is continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts
on the page after my epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please
if I'm wrong) I have no section prior to or before the front matter.
Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.
One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction,
but the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change
that I had to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front
matter to Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter.
I know you told me that as well in a number of ways.)
And that is this:
I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and
also I table of contents which will contain the names I give to
sections as I write some of which I have an idea about, and some which
will fall into place as I write the body of text after front matter.
Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.
I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to
Insert Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the
cursor position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will
Word assign the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have
to add to make the table of contents and other list?
I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from
you or know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to
front matter once I've determined what will go on them. And of course
if I knew at this point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I
can't know what my table of contents and other list is yet until I
write the body of the document.
Thanks,
CH
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?
I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the
first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not
have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a
printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it
is
blank. See
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm,
where Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is
"Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear
somewhere on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number
never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."
I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.
If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start
on an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.
I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.
No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There
is absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because
page i should be the first page of the book.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or
half
title page.
I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have
at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The
half-title page is the first page in a book, which has just the title
of the book (without the author and publication information). Its
verso is often used for a list of previous titles, series information,
a frontispiece, an epigraph, etc.
The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.
Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning
of the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it
merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the
front
matter.
I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine.
If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the
page is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is
certainly true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section
breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first
page" and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if
the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the
first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC;
format the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from
previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.
For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph,
title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso
page.
I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for
page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one
of the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text
I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.
I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting
quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.
Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the
bottom of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much
more
difficult to reply interlineally.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in
Word
2003 or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar
or
(in Word 2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately,
however, and actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file
and
reopened it.
You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing |
Find). In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual
page
breaks or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the
browse
arrows to search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that
you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft
view
with nonprinting characters displayed.
For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.
The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you
know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over
to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?
Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the
title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and
its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you
have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on
the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on
page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages
should be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they
don't
bear printed numbers.
The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a
blank
page.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
Thanks Suzanne. It may be true that I know relatively little about
Word.
I had to work on something else for a while, and I am getting this
done.
"But note that you should easily be able to see page and section
breaks
in Normal/Draft view with nonprinting characters displayed."
I used Draft View to see the Section Breaks because I couldn't see
them in
Normal View and because MSFT's help at
Delete A Page
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HP012264961033.aspx#3
said to do that.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?
I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.
I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or
half
title page.
The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.
I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine. I distilled every comment
from
the last big thread from the 4 people who had advice, and they are
helping. I think retrieving whatever I thought I had deleted somehow
wasn't done soon enough and I did know Ctrl+F and View Find but
somehow I
thought you meant something else. I've been using Ctrl+Z forever,
but
didn't think it would work there for some wrong reason at the time.
I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for
page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one
of the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text
I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting
quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.
" The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you
know
about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone
who
knows what he or she is doing?"
Not for a nanosecond would I hire a pro to do a job this simple,
Suzanne
even if it has taken me longer to figure out how to do it than it
should
have. I am having fun learning.
I don't need a pro to get this done. This is not a document that
requires
sophisticated Advanced Word use--and I'm getting it done. I'll admit
that
I haven't had to do many Word documents myself over the years, and
I've
spent most of my time learning Windows and helping thousands of
people
tweak and boot it since XP. You could google groups and see that I
have.
I've also helped with Word setup glitches, and some Outlook problems
but
that's of course not a Word formatting problem. I figure if I can
go
from not differentiating between the Start Button and the belly
button to
helping some MSFT MVPs and others in other areas with Windows,
including
to boot it when they can't, or with little tricks like the SubInACL
tool,
I can learn to use Word reasoably well. I'm not going to take a
lot of
time to read about fields and styles, when I just need to get a
decent
looking basic doc out and I will get this done.
Second, I am enjoying getting this done and learning some Word
basics.
Given the ease with with I can fix and use Windows, and do a few
other
things that are a lot more complicated in my perception than Word in
life,
(which is not to say at all I don't respect Pros like you and other
MVPs
who consult for a living and spend hours generously helping
beginners--I
respect and appreciate that very much), I wouldn't think of not
learning
some Word basics.
I have plenty of books, plenty of Ebooks, and the web. If I couldn't
produce a good looking document, I'd quit. I'm not trying to
incorporate
illustrations, build text around it, use different styles or do
anything
that you wouldn't consider basic. You're certainly welcome to chime
in
that I'm taking basic and making it look like it's brain surgery, but
I am
learning.
So except for the page numbering glitch I ran into, which admittedly
is evidence I may know little about Word, that's not going to be the
case
for long.
If you can get through a little bit of school you can learn to use
Word at
a decent level.
I know you're thinking that you are glad you don't have to see the
finished document because there may not be enough IV phenergan in
Fairhope
Alabama, but I'm fine with that, and learning as I go, and *I never
give
up*.
I have to revise the front matter after I've written the body of the
document as I said. There is no other way to do that because what is
in
the front matter and the table of contents will depend on how the
body of
the doc flows.
I'm thinking of possibly using One Note to get this organized,
because of
the ease with which you can drag sentences and paragraphs through
other
sentences and paragraphs to organize.
I believe I can get this done, and the next time it won't be that
difficult. I remain mixed up about your wanting me to use Odd Section
breaks when it seems Next Page Section breaks will do what I want
to do
so far.
"The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank
page."
Thanks,
CH
