Deleting 3 apparent blank pages before front matter starts

C

Chad Harris

I have one version of my document where the unnumbered front matter is
preceeded by 3 blank pages (or they don't have anything on them that I can
see. I am determined to Arabic number front matter and by correctly
applying next page section breaks before I do this as has been suggested.
If needed, I can start over clean.

There are a lot of directions all over the web for deleting blank pages, but
I haven't been able to do that if that's what I have. They sure look like
blank pages on the surface.

I know this should be the correct way to do it--from Pam Carswell (and I
believe from
Suzanne) on a previous thread:

From Pam Carswell :

"For the page numbering you describe, you need to insert two next-page
section breaks: one before page i and one before page 1."

I don't know how these pages got there, except that I must have really
misapplied section breaks.

But I know there is a way to get rid of those 3 pages in front of the first
page of my front matter which is a framed quote. It is on that page that I
expect to initate my first section break.

Suzanne Barnhill said that:

"Undo is your friend (especially when you unintentionally delete the entire
document). You can find and delete all manual page breaks by searching for
^m and replacing with nothing, section breaks by replacing ^b with nothing."

I don't see "undo" or know the key combo for it, and I don't understand what
Suzanne meant by "searching for ^m or^b.

I'm not sure if where she means to search--or if I'm to do something on one
or all of those 3 blank pages in front of the front matter, where a search
is located in Word or where or how to do an "undo."

On one box I installed Word 2007, because even though I manually uninstalled
Word 2010 when it would not uninstall from Add/Remove after getting several
messages in the middle of setup that I didn't have permission for a specific
registry key. I've dealth with this before, but I couldn't get it done this
time trying several times, and making sure all users had full permission on
that registry key. I manually uninstalled Word 2010, deleted ever file and
folder and reg. key and value I was instructed to, and uninstalled One Note
2010 just so nothing 2010 would be on the box.

This is a not uncommon glitch for some people with Word 2010 and I've
helped people with it on the 2010 newsgroups.

But it's not the problem I'm trying to solve here. I predict in June the
problem will be all over the Word setup groups when the Word team RTMs.

I had no problem installing Office 2007 in a few minutes. on the same box
that balked with the 1402 registry key error that some of us are seeing

On the other box, I put copies of the docs to work with 2010 later and see
if there is any difference.

Thanks,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Chad Harris said:
I have one version of my document where the unnumbered front matter is
preceeded by 3 blank pages (or they don't have anything on them that I
can see. I am determined to Arabic number front matter and by correctly
applying next page section breaks before I do this as has been suggested.
If needed, I can start over clean.

There are a lot of directions all over the web for deleting blank pages,
but I haven't been able to do that if that's what I have. They sure look
like blank pages on the surface.

I know this should be the correct way to do it--from Pam Carswell (and I
believe from
Suzanne) on a previous thread:

From Pam Carswell :

"For the page numbering you describe, you need to insert two next-page
section breaks: one before page i and one before page 1."

I don't know how these pages got there, except that I must have really
misapplied section breaks.

But I know there is a way to get rid of those 3 pages in front of the
first page of my front matter which is a framed quote. It is on that page
that I expect to initate my first section break.

Suzanne Barnhill said that:

"Undo is your friend (especially when you unintentionally delete the
entire
document). You can find and delete all manual page breaks by searching for
^m and replacing with nothing, section breaks by replacing ^b with
nothing."

I don't see "undo" or know the key combo for it, and I don't understand
what Suzanne meant by "searching for ^m or^b.

I'm not sure if where she means to search--or if I'm to do something on
one or all of those 3 blank pages in front of the front matter, where a
search is located in Word or where or how to do an "undo."

On one box I installed Word 2007, because even though I manually
uninstalled Word 2010 when it would not uninstall from Add/Remove after
getting several messages in the middle of setup that I didn't have
permission for a specific registry key. I've dealth with this before, but
I couldn't get it done this time trying several times, and making sure all
users had full permission on that registry key. I manually uninstalled
Word 2010, deleted ever file and folder and reg. key and value I was
instructed to, and uninstalled One Note 2010 just so nothing 2010 would be
on the box.

This is a not uncommon glitch for some people with Word 2010 and I've
helped people with it on the 2010 newsgroups.

But it's not the problem I'm trying to solve here. I predict in June the
problem will be all over the Word setup groups when the Word team RTMs.

I had no problem installing Office 2007 in a few minutes. on the same box
that balked with the 1402 registry key error that some of us are seeing

On the other box, I put copies of the docs to work with 2010 later and see
if there is any difference.

Thanks,

CH

Correction: I am determined to Roman Number front matter and Arabic number
middle matter or the second section--which ever it becomes.

Thanks,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in Word 2003
or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar or (in Word
2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately, however, and
actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file and reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing | Find).
In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual page breaks or
^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the browse arrows to
search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that you should
easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft view with
nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to someone who
knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require inserting
a section break before page i because in a document with roman-numbered
front matter should be the first page, either the title page or, if you have
one, the half-title. The half-title page and its verso, the title page and
its verso, and a dedication page (if you have one) and its verso should all
be numbered but not have numbers on the pages. If you had all those
elements, then your TOC would begin on page 7 unless preceded by a preface,
acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages should be numbered; that is, they
should be *counted* even if they don't bear printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in Word 2003
or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar or (in Word
2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately, however, and
actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file and reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing | Find).
In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual page breaks
or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the browse arrows to
search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft view
with nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages should
be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank
page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
Thanks Suzanne. It may be true that I know relatively little about Word. I
had to work on something else for a while, and I am getting this done.

"But note that you should easily be able to see page and section breaks in
Normal/Draft view with nonprinting characters displayed."

I used Draft View to see the Section Breaks because I couldn't see them in
Normal View and because MSFT's help at

Delete A Page
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HP012264961033.aspx#3

said to do that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be numbered;
that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear printed numbers."
Can you give me a context/example of when you would count all pages but not
give each one a printed number even if you were including an illustration,
clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen pace used
in that context before. So much for the English major.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half title
page.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I used
Start At and it seems to be working fine. I distilled every comment from
the last big thread from the 4 people who had advice, and they are helping.
I think retrieving whatever I thought I had deleted somehow wasn't done soon
enough and I did know Ctrl+F and View Find but somehow I thought you meant
something else. I've been using Ctrl+Z forever, but didn't think it would
work there for some wrong reason at the time.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of backups so
I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the letters
that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page after the
Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a bright red with
strike-through How that happened in that particular saved version, I don't
know but I have known that strike-through were one of the choices on the
font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began superficially using Word..
I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in that document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z
might have done it if applied at the right time, so I just got rid of it. I
sure didn't format red or cross through text

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do to me,
but I can't remember it.

" The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to someone
who
knows what he or she is doing?"

Not for a nanosecond would I hire a pro to do a job this simple, Suzanne
even if it has taken me longer to figure out how to do it than it should
have. I am having fun learning.

I don't need a pro to get this done. This is not a document that requires
sophisticated Advanced Word use--and I'm getting it done. I'll admit that I
haven't had to do many Word documents myself over the years, and I've spent
most of my time learning Windows and helping thousands of people tweak and
boot it since XP. You could google groups and see that I have. I've also
helped with Word setup glitches, and some Outlook problems but that's of
course not a Word formatting problem. I figure if I can go from not
differentiating between the Start Button and the belly button to helping
some MSFT MVPs and others in other areas with Windows, including to boot it
when they can't, or with little tricks like the SubInACL tool, I can learn
to use Word reasoably well. I'm not going to take a lot of time to read
about fields and styles, when I just need to get a decent looking basic doc
out and I will get this done.

Second, I am enjoying getting this done and learning some Word basics.
Given the ease with with I can fix and use Windows, and do a few other
things that are a lot more complicated in my perception than Word in life,
(which is not to say at all I don't respect Pros like you and other MVPs
who consult for a living and spend hours generously helping beginners--I
respect and appreciate that very much), I wouldn't think of not learning
some Word basics.

I have plenty of books, plenty of Ebooks, and the web. If I couldn't
produce a good looking document, I'd quit. I'm not trying to incorporate
illustrations, build text around it, use different styles or do anything
that you wouldn't consider basic. You're certainly welcome to chime in
that I'm taking basic and making it look like it's brain surgery, but I am
learning.

So except for the page numbering glitch I ran into, which admittedly
is evidence I may know little about Word, that's not going to be the case
for long.

If you can get through a little bit of school you can learn to use Word at a
decent level.

I know you're thinking that you are glad you don't have to see the finished
document because there may not be enough IV phenergan in Fairhope Alabama,
but I'm fine with that, and learning as I go, and *I never give up*.

I have to revise the front matter after I've written the body of the
document as I said. There is no other way to do that because what is in the
front matter and the table of contents will depend on how the body of the
doc flows.

I'm thinking of possibly using One Note to get this organized, because of
the ease with which you can drag sentences and paragraphs through other
sentences and paragraphs to organize.

I believe I can get this done, and the next time it won't be that difficult.
I remain mixed up about your wanting me to use Odd Section breaks when it
seems Next Page Section breaks will do what I want to do so far.

"The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank page."

Thanks,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in Word 2003
or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar or (in Word
2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately, however, and
actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file and reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing | Find).
In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual page breaks
or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the browse arrows to
search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft view
with nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages should
be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank
page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
Update--I didn't understand what I asked you to explain above, Suzanne, but
your work is *paying off* and the key combos are helping. I started over
with the document and I made the two section breaks and changed from Roman
number formatting to Arabic formatting from front matter to body of doc
without a hitch. It will get a little trick (for me) when I have to go back
to the front matter to insert the TOC, and other necessary components of
the front matter, but unless you tell me differently, to get that done I
just insert page breaks rather than section breaks to add the necessary
pages for my other components of the front matter like TOC.

I know you're saying that my dogs could have figured it out much faster. No
argument there. But they aren't the ones that have to get the doc done.

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?
I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it is
blank. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm, where Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is "Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear somewhere on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."
I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.
If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start on an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.
I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.
No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There is
absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because page i
should be the first page of the book.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half
title page.
I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The half-title
page is the first page in a book, which has just the title of the book
(without the author and publication information). Its verso is often used
for a list of previous titles, series information, a frontispiece, an
epigraph, etc.
The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.
Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning of the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the front
matter.
I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I used
Start At and it seems to be working fine.
If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the page is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is certainly true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first page" and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC; format the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.

For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph, title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso page.
I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one of the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross through
text
I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.
I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do to
me, but I can't remember it.
Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the bottom of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much more
difficult to reply interlineally.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne--

If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway, let
me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of shape over
the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom post" you had to
fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom before you posted.

The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next page
is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I understand
you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a number whether it
shows up or not.

Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso, and
pace [someone].

I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to you:

"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice "Start at"
or continue from previous section."

At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have chosen
the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio button which is
continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts on the page after my
epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please if I'm wrong) I have no
section prior to or before the front matter.

Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.

One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction, but
the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change that I had
to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front matter to
Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter. I know you told
me that as well in a number of ways.)

And that is this:

I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and also
I table of contents which will contain the names I give to sections as I
write some of which I have an idea about, and some which will fall into
place as I write the body of text after front matter.

Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.

I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to Insert
Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the cursor
position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will Word assign
the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have to add to make the
table of contents and other list?

I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from you or
know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to front matter
once I've determined what will go on them. And of course if I knew at this
point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I can't know what my
table of contents and other list is yet until I write the body of the
document.

Thanks,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

Your top posting is just fine. Generally speaking, I would not worry about
front matter at all until the main document is complete. Your TOC can be
generated automatically based on your headings once you've finished the
document. If you want to make a list of topics you want to write about, by
all means keep such a list (in OneNote or Notepad or in the document
itself), but don't try to make a TOC out of it.

By default, when you have only a single section in a document, the Page
Number Format is set at "Continue from previous section." The reason for
this is that, when you create new sections, they will replicate the settings
in the existing section. If you set a "Start at" number, then every new
section will start with that number. In your case, as long as you have just
the two sections, that's actually what you want, but (a) it would still be
better to start the first section with "Continue from previous section"
(since that's the Word default), and (b) if you add additional section
breaks in your main document, be aware that you'll need to change the Page
Number Format so that every section doesn't restart at 1.

I'm not sure what Insert Blank Page may do in Word 2007, but I would avoid
using it. Word 2007 gives the appearance of making things easy to do, but
often that makes them harder to undo. It is much better for you to have a
firm grasp on what you're doing (and why) and to retain control over the
formatting by doing things manually (and that means inserting page and
section breaks as YOU choose). Whenever you need a page that doesn't have a
page number on it, and that page follows one that is numbered, you will have
to do one of several things:

1. If you have an odd page that needs a blank back side (that is a numbered
recto and blank verso), then you can insert an Odd Page section break; Word
will begin the next section on an odd page and insert a completely blank
even page before it.

2. The first page in a section can be unnumbered (or numbered in a different
place) if you enable "Different First Page" for that section and omit the
page number from the header/footer.

3. You can omit numbering or put the numbers in a different place on odd and
even pages in a section if you enable "Different Odd and Even." Note that
this setting will affect the entire document, whereas you can enable
"Different First Page" for specific sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne--

If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway, let
me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of shape
over the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom post" you
had to fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom before you
posted.

The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next page
is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I
understand you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a
number whether it shows up or not.

Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso, and
pace [someone].

I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to you:

"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice "Start
at" or continue from previous section."

At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have chosen
the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio button which
is continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts on the page
after my epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please if I'm wrong) I
have no section prior to or before the front matter.

Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.

One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction, but
the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change that I had
to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front matter to
Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter. I know you
told me that as well in a number of ways.)

And that is this:

I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and
also I table of contents which will contain the names I give to sections
as I write some of which I have an idea about, and some which will fall
into place as I write the body of text after front matter.

Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.

I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to
Insert Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the
cursor position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will
Word assign the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have to
add to make the table of contents and other list?

I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from you
or know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to front
matter once I've determined what will go on them. And of course if I knew
at this point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I can't know
what my table of contents and other list is yet until I write the body of
the document.

Thanks,

CH







Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not
have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it is
blank. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm, where
Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is "Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear somewhere
on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."


If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start on
an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.


No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There is
absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because page i
should be the first page of the book.


I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The
half-title page is the first page in a book, which has just the title of
the book (without the author and publication information). Its verso is
often used for a list of previous titles, series information, a
frontispiece, an epigraph, etc.


Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning of
the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it
merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the front
matter.


If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the page
is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is certainly
true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section
breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first page"
and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the
first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC; format
the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.

For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph, title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso page.


I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.


Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the bottom
of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much
more
difficult to reply interlineally.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne--

I sure don't remember every changing the "continue from previous section"
radio button in the page number dialogue box, but I don't doubt if you say
the default is continue from previous section I must have. It does seem
confusing when you're numbering front matter if there is no "previous
section" to front matter why Word would default to that selection in the
page numbering dialogue box since an awful lot of authors using Word have
front matter.

Right now I have a radio button in the menu item "Start at
and since I'm out of the front matter doing my pages, 1, 2, 2 (Arabic
thing) it looks correct. I'm not writing a book, but some of the things
that I cover will have to be listed in the Table of Contents so maybe it
would have made sense to do the entire front matter later.

Here's what (and forgive me if I'm dense) I worry about. Once I finish this
main portion, and I have to go back and add a TOC and a specific list that
is necessary for me to have in the front matter, if I hit Ctrl+ Enter or
either add a blank page will I be able to do those two guys (TOC and my
other necessary list) and have Word number them in correct sequence via
small case Roman numerals automatically, or when adding them is there
another cascade of steps you recommend I take? If you just explained that
and I didn't absorb it I really apologize because I'm reading over your last
post X again.

Thanks,

CH

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
Your top posting is just fine. Generally speaking, I would not worry about
front matter at all until the main document is complete. Your TOC can be
generated automatically based on your headings once you've finished the
document. If you want to make a list of topics you want to write about, by
all means keep such a list (in OneNote or Notepad or in the document
itself), but don't try to make a TOC out of it.

By default, when you have only a single section in a document, the Page
Number Format is set at "Continue from previous section." The reason for
this is that, when you create new sections, they will replicate the
settings in the existing section. If you set a "Start at" number, then
every new section will start with that number. In your case, as long as
you have just the two sections, that's actually what you want, but (a) it
would still be better to start the first section with "Continue from
previous section" (since that's the Word default), and (b) if you add
additional section breaks in your main document, be aware that you'll need
to change the Page Number Format so that every section doesn't restart at
1.

I'm not sure what Insert Blank Page may do in Word 2007, but I would avoid
using it. Word 2007 gives the appearance of making things easy to do, but
often that makes them harder to undo. It is much better for you to have a
firm grasp on what you're doing (and why) and to retain control over the
formatting by doing things manually (and that means inserting page and
section breaks as YOU choose). Whenever you need a page that doesn't have
a page number on it, and that page follows one that is numbered, you will
have to do one of several things:

1. If you have an odd page that needs a blank back side (that is a
numbered recto and blank verso), then you can insert an Odd Page section
break; Word will begin the next section on an odd page and insert a
completely blank even page before it.

2. The first page in a section can be unnumbered (or numbered in a
different place) if you enable "Different First Page" for that section and
omit the page number from the header/footer.

3. You can omit numbering or put the numbers in a different place on odd
and even pages in a section if you enable "Different Odd and Even." Note
that this setting will affect the entire document, whereas you can enable
"Different First Page" for specific sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne--

If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway,
let me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of
shape over the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom
post" you had to fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom
before you posted.

The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next
page is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I
understand you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a
number whether it shows up or not.

Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso, and
pace [someone].

I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to
you:

"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice "Start
at" or continue from previous section."

At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have chosen
the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio button which
is continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts on the page
after my epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please if I'm wrong)
I have no section prior to or before the front matter.

Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.

One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction,
but the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change that
I had to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front matter
to Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter. I know
you told me that as well in a number of ways.)

And that is this:

I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and
also I table of contents which will contain the names I give to sections
as I write some of which I have an idea about, and some which will fall
into place as I write the body of text after front matter.

Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.

I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to
Insert Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the
cursor position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will
Word assign the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have to
add to make the table of contents and other list?

I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from you
or know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to front
matter once I've determined what will go on them. And of course if I
knew at this point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I can't
know what my table of contents and other list is yet until I write the
body of the document.

Thanks,

CH







Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the
first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not
have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it
is
blank. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm, where
Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is "Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear
somewhere on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start
on an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There is
absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because page
i should be the first page of the book.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half
title page.

I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The
half-title page is the first page in a book, which has just the title of
the book (without the author and publication information). Its verso is
often used for a list of previous titles, series information, a
frontispiece, an epigraph, etc.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning of
the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it
merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the front
matter.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I used
Start At and it seems to be working fine.

If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the page
is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is certainly
true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section
breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first page"
and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the
first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC; format
the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from
previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.

For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph,
title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso page.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one of
the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes
in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the
bottom of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much
more
difficult to reply interlineally.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org



You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in Word
2003 or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar or
(in Word 2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately,
however, and actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file and
reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing |
Find). In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual
page
breaks or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the browse
arrows to search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft
view
with nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you
have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on
page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages
should be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they
don't
bear printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a
blank
page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Thanks Suzanne. It may be true that I know relatively little about
Word.
I had to work on something else for a while, and I am getting this
done.

"But note that you should easily be able to see page and section
breaks
in Normal/Draft view with nonprinting characters displayed."

I used Draft View to see the Section Breaks because I couldn't see them
in
Normal View and because MSFT's help at

Delete A Page
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HP012264961033.aspx#3

said to do that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half
title page.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I used
Start At and it seems to be working fine. I distilled every comment
from
the last big thread from the 4 people who had advice, and they are
helping. I think retrieving whatever I thought I had deleted somehow
wasn't done soon enough and I did know Ctrl+F and View Find but somehow
I
thought you meant something else. I've been using Ctrl+Z forever, but
didn't think it would work there for some wrong reason at the time.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one of
the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes
in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

" The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone
who
knows what he or she is doing?"

Not for a nanosecond would I hire a pro to do a job this simple,
Suzanne
even if it has taken me longer to figure out how to do it than it
should
have. I am having fun learning.

I don't need a pro to get this done. This is not a document that
requires
sophisticated Advanced Word use--and I'm getting it done. I'll admit
that
I haven't had to do many Word documents myself over the years, and I've
spent most of my time learning Windows and helping thousands of people
tweak and boot it since XP. You could google groups and see that I
have.
I've also helped with Word setup glitches, and some Outlook problems
but
that's of course not a Word formatting problem. I figure if I can go
from not differentiating between the Start Button and the belly button
to
helping some MSFT MVPs and others in other areas with Windows,
including
to boot it when they can't, or with little tricks like the SubInACL
tool,
I can learn to use Word reasoably well. I'm not going to take a lot
of
time to read about fields and styles, when I just need to get a decent
looking basic doc out and I will get this done.

Second, I am enjoying getting this done and learning some Word basics.
Given the ease with with I can fix and use Windows, and do a few other
things that are a lot more complicated in my perception than Word in
life,
(which is not to say at all I don't respect Pros like you and other
MVPs
who consult for a living and spend hours generously helping
beginners--I
respect and appreciate that very much), I wouldn't think of not
learning
some Word basics.

I have plenty of books, plenty of Ebooks, and the web. If I couldn't
produce a good looking document, I'd quit. I'm not trying to
incorporate
illustrations, build text around it, use different styles or do
anything
that you wouldn't consider basic. You're certainly welcome to chime
in
that I'm taking basic and making it look like it's brain surgery, but I
am
learning.

So except for the page numbering glitch I ran into, which admittedly
is evidence I may know little about Word, that's not going to be the
case
for long.

If you can get through a little bit of school you can learn to use Word
at
a decent level.

I know you're thinking that you are glad you don't have to see the
finished document because there may not be enough IV phenergan in
Fairhope
Alabama, but I'm fine with that, and learning as I go, and *I never
give
up*.

I have to revise the front matter after I've written the body of the
document as I said. There is no other way to do that because what is
in
the front matter and the table of contents will depend on how the body
of
the doc flows.

I'm thinking of possibly using One Note to get this organized, because
of
the ease with which you can drag sentences and paragraphs through other
sentences and paragraphs to organize.

I believe I can get this done, and the next time it won't be that
difficult. I remain mixed up about your wanting me to use Odd Section
breaks when it seems Next Page Section breaks will do what I want to
do
so far.

"The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank page."

Thanks,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

As I explained, a single section is set to "Continue from previous section"
(even though there is no previous section) so that any additional sections
added will also have this setting by default and numbering will, by default,
by continuous throughout the document, which is what most people want most
of the time. Keep in mind that section breaks are added not just for
restarting numbering but also when you change the number of columns, insert
a landscape page, etc.

Yes, you can add pages to the front matter section, and the numbering will
be continuous with lowercase roman numerals. You just need to be sure you
add the pages before the section break. Any pages you add (by any method)
after the section break will continue with the arabic numerals.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne--

I sure don't remember every changing the "continue from previous section"
radio button in the page number dialogue box, but I don't doubt if you say
the default is continue from previous section I must have. It does seem
confusing when you're numbering front matter if there is no "previous
section" to front matter why Word would default to that selection in the
page numbering dialogue box since an awful lot of authors using Word have
front matter.

Right now I have a radio button in the menu item "Start at
and since I'm out of the front matter doing my pages, 1, 2, 2 (Arabic
thing) it looks correct. I'm not writing a book, but some of the things
that I cover will have to be listed in the Table of Contents so maybe it
would have made sense to do the entire front matter later.

Here's what (and forgive me if I'm dense) I worry about. Once I finish
this main portion, and I have to go back and add a TOC and a specific list
that is necessary for me to have in the front matter, if I hit Ctrl+ Enter
or either add a blank page will I be able to do those two guys (TOC and my
other necessary list) and have Word number them in correct sequence via
small case Roman numerals automatically, or when adding them is there
another cascade of steps you recommend I take? If you just explained that
and I didn't absorb it I really apologize because I'm reading over your
last post X again.

Thanks,

CH

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
Your top posting is just fine. Generally speaking, I would not worry
about front matter at all until the main document is complete. Your TOC
can be generated automatically based on your headings once you've
finished the document. If you want to make a list of topics you want to
write about, by all means keep such a list (in OneNote or Notepad or in
the document itself), but don't try to make a TOC out of it.

By default, when you have only a single section in a document, the Page
Number Format is set at "Continue from previous section." The reason for
this is that, when you create new sections, they will replicate the
settings in the existing section. If you set a "Start at" number, then
every new section will start with that number. In your case, as long as
you have just the two sections, that's actually what you want, but (a) it
would still be better to start the first section with "Continue from
previous section" (since that's the Word default), and (b) if you add
additional section breaks in your main document, be aware that you'll
need to change the Page Number Format so that every section doesn't
restart at 1.

I'm not sure what Insert Blank Page may do in Word 2007, but I would
avoid using it. Word 2007 gives the appearance of making things easy to
do, but often that makes them harder to undo. It is much better for you
to have a firm grasp on what you're doing (and why) and to retain control
over the formatting by doing things manually (and that means inserting
page and section breaks as YOU choose). Whenever you need a page that
doesn't have a page number on it, and that page follows one that is
numbered, you will have to do one of several things:

1. If you have an odd page that needs a blank back side (that is a
numbered recto and blank verso), then you can insert an Odd Page section
break; Word will begin the next section on an odd page and insert a
completely blank even page before it.

2. The first page in a section can be unnumbered (or numbered in a
different place) if you enable "Different First Page" for that section
and omit the page number from the header/footer.

3. You can omit numbering or put the numbers in a different place on odd
and even pages in a section if you enable "Different Odd and Even." Note
that this setting will affect the entire document, whereas you can enable
"Different First Page" for specific sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne--

If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway,
let me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of
shape over the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom
post" you had to fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom
before you posted.

The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next
page is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I
understand you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a
number whether it shows up or not.

Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso,
and pace [someone].

I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to
you:

"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice "Start
at" or continue from previous section."

At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have
chosen the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio
button which is continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts
on the page after my epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please
if I'm wrong) I have no section prior to or before the front matter.

Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.

One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction,
but the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change that
I had to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front
matter to Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter. I
know you told me that as well in a number of ways.)

And that is this:

I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and
also I table of contents which will contain the names I give to sections
as I write some of which I have an idea about, and some which will fall
into place as I write the body of text after front matter.

Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.

I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to
Insert Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the
cursor position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will
Word assign the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have to
add to make the table of contents and other list?

I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from you
or know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to front
matter once I've determined what will go on them. And of course if I
knew at this point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I can't
know what my table of contents and other list is yet until I write the
body of the document.

Thanks,

CH







I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the
first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not
have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a
printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it
is
blank. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm, where
Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is "Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear
somewhere on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number
never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start
on an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There is
absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because page
i should be the first page of the book.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half
title page.

I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The
half-title page is the first page in a book, which has just the title
of the book (without the author and publication information). Its verso
is often used for a list of previous titles, series information, a
frontispiece, an epigraph, etc.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning of
the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it
merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the front
matter.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine.

If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the page
is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is certainly
true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section
breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first
page" and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the
first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC; format
the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from
previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.

For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph,
title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso page.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one of
the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes
in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the
bottom of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much
more
difficult to reply interlineally.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org



You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in Word
2003 or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar
or
(in Word 2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately,
however, and actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file and
reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing |
Find). In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual
page
breaks or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the
browse
arrows to search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft
view
with nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over
to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the
title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you
have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on
page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages
should be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they
don't
bear printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a
blank
page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Thanks Suzanne. It may be true that I know relatively little about
Word.
I had to work on something else for a while, and I am getting this
done.

"But note that you should easily be able to see page and section
breaks
in Normal/Draft view with nonprinting characters displayed."

I used Draft View to see the Section Breaks because I couldn't see
them in
Normal View and because MSFT's help at

Delete A Page
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HP012264961033.aspx#3

said to do that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or half
title page.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine. I distilled every comment
from
the last big thread from the 4 people who had advice, and they are
helping. I think retrieving whatever I thought I had deleted somehow
wasn't done soon enough and I did know Ctrl+F and View Find but
somehow I
thought you meant something else. I've been using Ctrl+Z forever, but
didn't think it would work there for some wrong reason at the time.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one of
the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting quotes
in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

" The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you
know
about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone
who
knows what he or she is doing?"

Not for a nanosecond would I hire a pro to do a job this simple,
Suzanne
even if it has taken me longer to figure out how to do it than it
should
have. I am having fun learning.

I don't need a pro to get this done. This is not a document that
requires
sophisticated Advanced Word use--and I'm getting it done. I'll admit
that
I haven't had to do many Word documents myself over the years, and
I've
spent most of my time learning Windows and helping thousands of people
tweak and boot it since XP. You could google groups and see that I
have.
I've also helped with Word setup glitches, and some Outlook problems
but
that's of course not a Word formatting problem. I figure if I can go
from not differentiating between the Start Button and the belly button
to
helping some MSFT MVPs and others in other areas with Windows,
including
to boot it when they can't, or with little tricks like the SubInACL
tool,
I can learn to use Word reasoably well. I'm not going to take a lot
of
time to read about fields and styles, when I just need to get a decent
looking basic doc out and I will get this done.

Second, I am enjoying getting this done and learning some Word basics.
Given the ease with with I can fix and use Windows, and do a few other
things that are a lot more complicated in my perception than Word in
life,
(which is not to say at all I don't respect Pros like you and other
MVPs
who consult for a living and spend hours generously helping
beginners--I
respect and appreciate that very much), I wouldn't think of not
learning
some Word basics.

I have plenty of books, plenty of Ebooks, and the web. If I couldn't
produce a good looking document, I'd quit. I'm not trying to
incorporate
illustrations, build text around it, use different styles or do
anything
that you wouldn't consider basic. You're certainly welcome to chime
in
that I'm taking basic and making it look like it's brain surgery, but
I am
learning.

So except for the page numbering glitch I ran into, which admittedly
is evidence I may know little about Word, that's not going to be the
case
for long.

If you can get through a little bit of school you can learn to use
Word at
a decent level.

I know you're thinking that you are glad you don't have to see the
finished document because there may not be enough IV phenergan in
Fairhope
Alabama, but I'm fine with that, and learning as I go, and *I never
give
up*.

I have to revise the front matter after I've written the body of the
document as I said. There is no other way to do that because what is
in
the front matter and the table of contents will depend on how the body
of
the doc flows.

I'm thinking of possibly using One Note to get this organized, because
of
the ease with which you can drag sentences and paragraphs through
other
sentences and paragraphs to organize.

I believe I can get this done, and the next time it won't be that
difficult. I remain mixed up about your wanting me to use Odd Section
breaks when it seems Next Page Section breaks will do what I want to
do
so far.

"The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank
page."

Thanks,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

I appreciate that sections breaks are added for more reasons than just page
numbering, because as I read, I am getting exposed to some anxillary info
for other uses.

Very helpful--and I understand the point in your first paragraph of continue
from previous section, and I suppose that it won't impact me negatively to
change the radio button to that for the front matter, and the important
point about adding pages prior to the section break or they are going to
adopt the numbers chosen after the section break.

Thanks,

CH



Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
As I explained, a single section is set to "Continue from previous
section" (even though there is no previous section) so that any additional
sections added will also have this setting by default and numbering will,
by default, by continuous throughout the document, which is what most
people want most of the time. Keep in mind that section breaks are added
not just for restarting numbering but also when you change the number of
columns, insert a landscape page, etc.

Yes, you can add pages to the front matter section, and the numbering will
be continuous with lowercase roman numerals. You just need to be sure you
add the pages before the section break. Any pages you add (by any method)
after the section break will continue with the arabic numerals.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne--

I sure don't remember every changing the "continue from previous section"
radio button in the page number dialogue box, but I don't doubt if you
say the default is continue from previous section I must have. It does
seem confusing when you're numbering front matter if there is no
"previous section" to front matter why Word would default to that
selection in the page numbering dialogue box since an awful lot of
authors using Word have front matter.

Right now I have a radio button in the menu item "Start at
and since I'm out of the front matter doing my pages, 1, 2, 2 (Arabic
thing) it looks correct. I'm not writing a book, but some of the things
that I cover will have to be listed in the Table of Contents so maybe it
would have made sense to do the entire front matter later.

Here's what (and forgive me if I'm dense) I worry about. Once I finish
this main portion, and I have to go back and add a TOC and a specific
list that is necessary for me to have in the front matter, if I hit Ctrl+
Enter or either add a blank page will I be able to do those two guys (TOC
and my other necessary list) and have Word number them in correct
sequence via small case Roman numerals automatically, or when adding them
is there another cascade of steps you recommend I take? If you just
explained that and I didn't absorb it I really apologize because I'm
reading over your last post X again.

Thanks,

CH

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
Your top posting is just fine. Generally speaking, I would not worry
about front matter at all until the main document is complete. Your TOC
can be generated automatically based on your headings once you've
finished the document. If you want to make a list of topics you want to
write about, by all means keep such a list (in OneNote or Notepad or in
the document itself), but don't try to make a TOC out of it.

By default, when you have only a single section in a document, the Page
Number Format is set at "Continue from previous section." The reason for
this is that, when you create new sections, they will replicate the
settings in the existing section. If you set a "Start at" number, then
every new section will start with that number. In your case, as long as
you have just the two sections, that's actually what you want, but (a)
it would still be better to start the first section with "Continue from
previous section" (since that's the Word default), and (b) if you add
additional section breaks in your main document, be aware that you'll
need to change the Page Number Format so that every section doesn't
restart at 1.

I'm not sure what Insert Blank Page may do in Word 2007, but I would
avoid using it. Word 2007 gives the appearance of making things easy to
do, but often that makes them harder to undo. It is much better for you
to have a firm grasp on what you're doing (and why) and to retain
control over the formatting by doing things manually (and that means
inserting page and section breaks as YOU choose). Whenever you need a
page that doesn't have a page number on it, and that page follows one
that is numbered, you will have to do one of several things:

1. If you have an odd page that needs a blank back side (that is a
numbered recto and blank verso), then you can insert an Odd Page section
break; Word will begin the next section on an odd page and insert a
completely blank even page before it.

2. The first page in a section can be unnumbered (or numbered in a
different place) if you enable "Different First Page" for that section
and omit the page number from the header/footer.

3. You can omit numbering or put the numbers in a different place on odd
and even pages in a section if you enable "Different Odd and Even." Note
that this setting will affect the entire document, whereas you can
enable "Different First Page" for specific sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Suzanne--

If this is not correct top posting, which is sure easier to do anyway,
let me know. In the Windows forums, people seemed to get bent out of
shape over the years if you did top post which always meant to "bottom
post" you had to fuss around with getting rid of stuff on the bottom
before you posted.

The number on my epigraph does not appear on the page. Then the next
page is small Roman numeral "ii", which is the way it should be if I
understand you correctly when you and Bill say that every page has a
number whether it shows up or not.

Thanks for teaching me these terms that I did not know--recto, verso,
and pace [someone].

I'm still confused about this which is why I said in the last post to
you:

"I am a little confused about the page number radio button choice
"Start at" or continue from previous section."

At Insert Tab>Page Numbers>Format Page Number dialogue box I have
chosen the default which is "Start at i" instead of the other radio
button which is continue from previous section. Since the "ii" starts
on the page after my epigraph, then my thinking was (correct me please
if I'm wrong) I have no section prior to or before the front matter.

Title Page>Epigraph>rest of front matter.

One thing I wonder about and you may have explained it perfectly and I
missed it but I am taking all your posts, Doug, Janinine's, Pam's and
putting them into a notepad. ( I take your point in Pam's correction,
but the way she put one sentence helped me grasp that for my change
that I had to make a section break to go from Roman numerals in front
matter to Arabic numbers in the body of the paper after front matter.
I know you told me that as well in a number of ways.)

And that is this:

I am going to have a list of things that has to go in front matter, and
also I table of contents which will contain the names I give to
sections as I write some of which I have an idea about, and some which
will fall into place as I write the body of text after front matter.

Here I'm asking about the correct way to add pages to front matter.

I know that you can sure add a blank page in Word by simply going to
Insert Tab>Blank Page (which will of course insert a blank page at the
cursor position. Since the front matter has Roman numerals ii-x, will
Word assign the correctly sequenced Roman numeral to the pages I have
to add to make the table of contents and other list?

I think the answer is "Yes of course." But I wanted to hear it from
you or know if there is a more preferred way to add blank pages to
front matter once I've determined what will go on them. And of course
if I knew at this point what would go on them, I'd be doing them--but I
can't know what my table of contents and other list is yet until I
write the body of the document.

Thanks,

CH







I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I mean that the numbering (that is, the page count) begins with the
first
page of the document and does not skip any pages. The number does not
have
to appear on the page, but every page should have a number. In a
printed
book, every page has a recto (odd-numbered, right-hand) and verso
(even-numbered, left-hand) side, and the verso has a number even if it
is
blank. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm,
where Bill
Coan explains this perhaps better than I have: His Big Idea #3 is
"Just
because a page has a number doesn't mean the number will appear
somewhere on
the page. Far from it. In fact, ALL pages have numbers. The number
never
appears unless you tell Word to display it."

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

If this is to be a proper printed book, the document body should start
on an
odd (recto, right-hand) page.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

No, "pace Pam" means (roughly) "with all due respect, Pam is wrong" or
"despite what Pam said or "in contradiction to what Pam said." There
is absolutely no reason to have a section break before page i because
page i should be the first page of the book.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or
half
title page.

I've lost track of what you're doing here, but it sounds like a book.
Anything formal enough to have front matter is formal enough to have
at
least a title page, which should have a blank back (verso). The
half-title page is the first page in a book, which has just the title
of the book (without the author and publication information). Its
verso is often used for a list of previous titles, series information,
a frontispiece, an epigraph, etc.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

Section breaks are required for numerous purposes, one of which is to
restart page numbering, but you don't need one at the very beginning
of the
manuscript. So far, your description of the content suggests that it
merits
at least one section break, where you restart numbering after the
front
matter.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine.

If this quote (an epigraph?) is part of the front matter, then the
page is
numbered even if the number doesn't appear on the page. It is
certainly true
that, in order to have unnumbered pages, you will need to use section
breaks
when you exhaust what you can accomplish by using "Different first
page" and
"Different odd and even." In your situation, I would guess that, if
the
first page of the front matter that needs a printed page number is the
first
page of the TOC, then you need an Odd Page break before the TOC;
format the
numbering as i, ii, iii, but leave the setting at "Continue from
previous
section" because all those previous pages have numbers.

For the pages that need to have blank versos (half-title, epigraph,
title
page if the verso is not a copyright page), instead of using Odd Page
breaks, you could just use two page breaks to get the blank verso
page.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for
page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one
of the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I suspect you had Track Changes turned on.

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting
quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

Top posting is encouraged in these forums. Having to scroll to the
bottom of
a long post to read the new material is very tedious and makes it much
more
difficult to reply interlineally.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org



You can Undo using Ctrl+Z (all versions) or using Edit | Undo in
Word
2003 or earlier or by using the Undo button on the Standard toolbar
or
(in Word 2007) the QAT. Undo is helpful only if used immediately,
however, and actions cannot be undone if you have closed the file
and
reopened it.

You search by using Find (Edit | Find or Ctrl+F or Home | Editing |
Find). In the "Find what" box, you can type ^m to search for manual
page
breaks or ^b to search for section breaks. You can also use the
browse
arrows to search for section breaks; for more on this, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/SpecialFind.htm. But note that
you
should easily be able to see page and section breaks in Normal/Draft
view
with nonprinting characters displayed.

For the blank page issue, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/BlankPage.htm.

The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you
know
about how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over
to
someone who knows what he or she is doing?

Also, pace Pam, I don't believe any numbering scheme would require
inserting a section break before page i because in a document with
roman-numbered front matter should be the first page, either the
title
page or, if you have one, the half-title. The half-title page and
its
verso, the title page and its verso, and a dedication page (if you
have
one) and its verso should all be numbered but not have numbers on
the
pages. If you had all those elements, then your TOC would begin on
page 7
unless preceded by a preface, acknowledgments, etc. But *all* pages
should be numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they
don't
bear printed numbers.

The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a
blank
page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Thanks Suzanne. It may be true that I know relatively little about
Word.
I had to work on something else for a while, and I am getting this
done.

"But note that you should easily be able to see page and section
breaks
in Normal/Draft view with nonprinting characters displayed."

I used Draft View to see the Section Breaks because I couldn't see
them in
Normal View and because MSFT's help at

Delete A Page
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HP012264961033.aspx#3

said to do that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "But *all* pages should be
numbered; that is, they should be *counted* even if they don't bear
printed numbers." Can you give me a context/example of when you would
count all pages but not give each one a printed number even if you
were
including an illustration, clip art, or a graph, etc.?

I thought the section break should be a "next page" section break.

I suppose you mean by pace Pam--according to Pam. I've never seen
pace
used in that context before. So much for the English major.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "title page and it's verso" or
half
title page.

The major point is to make a section break before you start the page
numbering it seems to me simplistically, although I am a little
confused
about the page number radio button choice "Start at" or continue from
previous section.

I had a quote I didn't think merited the first Roman numeral, so I
used
Start At and it seems to be working fine. I distilled every comment
from
the last big thread from the 4 people who had advice, and they are
helping. I think retrieving whatever I thought I had deleted somehow
wasn't done soon enough and I did know Ctrl+F and View Find but
somehow I
thought you meant something else. I've been using Ctrl+Z forever,
but
didn't think it would work there for some wrong reason at the time.

I backed up what I had done via email and Word had made plenty of
backups
so I haven't lost anything there. One of the backups did take the
letters that are behind the quote I framed with a large frame for
page
after the Title and turned what Word defaults as a pale green into a
bright red with strike-through How that happened in that particular
saved
version, I don't know but I have known that strike-through were one
of the
choices on the font dialogue box of the Home tab since I began
superficially using Word.. I couldn't rid of the strike thoughs in
that
document, and possibly a Ctrl+Z might have done it if applied at the
right
time, so I just got rid of it. I sure didn't format red or cross
through
text

I thought there was a way to clean the > that come with pasting
quotes in
this space to avoid top posting which almost seems more logical to do
to
me, but I can't remember it.

" The more you post here, the more I realize how really little you
know
about
how to use Word. Has it occurred to you to turn this job over to
someone
who
knows what he or she is doing?"

Not for a nanosecond would I hire a pro to do a job this simple,
Suzanne
even if it has taken me longer to figure out how to do it than it
should
have. I am having fun learning.

I don't need a pro to get this done. This is not a document that
requires
sophisticated Advanced Word use--and I'm getting it done. I'll admit
that
I haven't had to do many Word documents myself over the years, and
I've
spent most of my time learning Windows and helping thousands of
people
tweak and boot it since XP. You could google groups and see that I
have.
I've also helped with Word setup glitches, and some Outlook problems
but
that's of course not a Word formatting problem. I figure if I can
go
from not differentiating between the Start Button and the belly
button to
helping some MSFT MVPs and others in other areas with Windows,
including
to boot it when they can't, or with little tricks like the SubInACL
tool,
I can learn to use Word reasoably well. I'm not going to take a
lot of
time to read about fields and styles, when I just need to get a
decent
looking basic doc out and I will get this done.

Second, I am enjoying getting this done and learning some Word
basics.
Given the ease with with I can fix and use Windows, and do a few
other
things that are a lot more complicated in my perception than Word in
life,
(which is not to say at all I don't respect Pros like you and other
MVPs
who consult for a living and spend hours generously helping
beginners--I
respect and appreciate that very much), I wouldn't think of not
learning
some Word basics.

I have plenty of books, plenty of Ebooks, and the web. If I couldn't
produce a good looking document, I'd quit. I'm not trying to
incorporate
illustrations, build text around it, use different styles or do
anything
that you wouldn't consider basic. You're certainly welcome to chime
in
that I'm taking basic and making it look like it's brain surgery, but
I am
learning.

So except for the page numbering glitch I ran into, which admittedly
is evidence I may know little about Word, that's not going to be the
case
for long.

If you can get through a little bit of school you can learn to use
Word at
a decent level.

I know you're thinking that you are glad you don't have to see the
finished document because there may not be enough IV phenergan in
Fairhope
Alabama, but I'm fine with that, and learning as I go, and *I never
give
up*.

I have to revise the front matter after I've written the body of the
document as I said. There is no other way to do that because what is
in
the front matter and the table of contents will depend on how the
body of
the doc flows.

I'm thinking of possibly using One Note to get this organized,
because of
the ease with which you can drag sentences and paragraphs through
other
sentences and paragraphs to organize.

I believe I can get this done, and the next time it won't be that
difficult. I remain mixed up about your wanting me to use Odd Section
breaks when it seems Next Page Section breaks will do what I want
to do
so far.

"The document body should then begin on page 1, following an Odd Page
section
break, and the last page of the front matter may well be a blank
page."

Thanks,

CH
 
P

Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com

Hi, Suzanne, you are, of course, right about book pagination and probably
right about pamphlet pagination conventions today (though not when I started
in this business). But I now work mainly on formal business documents. If
they get printed and bound at all, it is in a three-ring binder. They often
have cover letters, forms, and cover pages that, now that these documents are
often delivered electronically, must be included at the beginning of document
file but are not included in the pagination. So the TOC usually starts with
page i, even if it's 10 pages into the file.

I couldn't tell what kind of document the OP was preparing and decided it
best tell him how to get what he described.

Pam
 
C

Chad Harris

Hi Pam--

I appreciate your help and your forum site. Your post helped clarify what I
was trying to do, and though I have some questions around the fringes, I
have gotten the pagination done when it seemed a ridiculous obstacle a few
days ago. I have picked up some nice explanations, and they will stick with
me as I keep them and review them.

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

Agreed. One of my clients does much the same thing, and it's always been a
toss-up whether the transmittal letter was included as part of the
file/pagination. In general, we paginate files continuously. If he prints
several files and puts them together, then so be it (this is the way most of
the appendixes are handled).

But we also see the other side: reports with numbered and unnumbered pages
that are impossible to reference until they have been Bates-stamped. An
appraisal review report we're currently working on has had to be revised
numerous times because the appraisal he first got in discovery had a large
chunk of content repeated, along with numerous unnumbered pages. A revised
report was then submitted in which the repeated content had been removed, so
of course the page numbers changed, and then that report was resubmitted
with Bates numbers, so we could use those (which was a big help with the
unnumbered pages!).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 

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