Distribution lists don't show up in BCC when sending

[zaphod]

Last week I thought I had finally reached the end of the road with the
migration of a client's Outlook Express address book and groups to Outlook
2003 on a new PC. At every step of the way Outlook would NOT co-operate in
setting up the Distribution Lists. Eventually I had to setup a second folder
for the original addresses and groups and run Outlook 2003 with 2 PSTs. If I
then tried to copy or move the newly imported DLs to rationalise everything
it messed up the DLs. Initially the Lists didn't show up in the Address list
when creating messages so I had to manually add them. Not a very intuitive
default.

Finally, I managed to get the Distribution Lists to show up in the BCC line
after 3 visists to my client's office. I thought we had reached the end of
the road until ..................

This morning my client entered his Distribution Lists in the BCC fields of
some important mailouts and received this error:

"The personal distribution list(s) this message is addressed to must contain
recipients. Add at least one recipient to each list."

My client verified the DLs were populated by expanding them but received
another error:

"Cannot perform the requested operation. The command selected is not valid
for this recipient. There was an error while expanding the list. The list
was not fully expanded."

What on earth is going on? I finally managed to get these DLs into Outlook
and it still won't do the right thing. Migration between Outlook and Outlook
Express is a nightmare if you have to keep DLs intact. When I imported from
OE initially not only did Outlook put the items in a folder I did NOT select
but it wiped out the OE Addresss Book! Bravo Microsoft!

zaphod

 

[zaphod]

Further details. I created a new test DL in the Contacts folder containing
the imported DLs and it works fine when sent via CC or BCC.

zaphod

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

Now you see why we recommend against the use of DL's. They are not robust
and rarely survive importing/exporting.

 

[zaphod]

Now you see why we recommend against the use of DL's. They are not robust
and rarely survive importing/exporting.

Err, where exactly is this advice documented by Microsoft?

I took the advice against importing and exporting the DLs, preferring to
copy the original PST from the old machine. (Detail: I originally imported
from OE to Outlook on the old PC then copied the PST to the new PC.)

From what I have read, when I create a new folder for the PST and point to
it via Data Management this should bypass import/export problems with DLs.
After much hand-wringing I DID manage to get the DLs into Outlook. Why on
earth can't I now USE them?

What you are saying seems tantamount to admitting that Outlook, despite its
many incarnations, is still beta software? If you "recommend against the use
of DL's" what else do you recommend in its place? In Mozilla Thunderbird I
can create groups to my heart's content, move them, copy them, import them
and export them without a problem. Why can't Outlook do the same considering
the financial muscle Microsoft has? Binary format lock-in seems to be coming
back to haunt Microsoft.

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

I was merely sympathizing with your plight and confirming that these are
well known limitations for which Microsoft has no solutions. These
limitations are not documented by Microsoft. They are documented by
countless posts to this effect in this and other groups.
Groups in OE are not the same as DL's in Outlook and cannot be imported
successfully in most cases. Nor can DL's be imported from one version of
Outlook to another. Copying the PST file as you did will preserve DL's, but
if the DL was first imported from OE it will not work.
Most of us gave up on DL's long ago in favor of other ways of groups
Contacts such as Categories or separate Contact subfolders.

 

[zaphod]

Now you see why we recommend against the use of DL's. They are not robust
and rarely survive importing/exporting.

So I want to move DLs from Outlook 2003 to Outlook 2003 on a differnt
machine I've basically had it?

zaphod

 

[Brian Tillman]

Last week I thought I had finally reached the end of the road with the
migration of a client's Outlook Express address book and groups to
Outlook 2003 on a new PC. At every step of the way Outlook would NOT
co-operate in setting up the Distribution Lists. Eventually I had to
setup a second folder for the original addresses and groups and run
Outlook 2003 with 2 PSTs.

Why not two contacts folders in the same PST?

Finally, I managed to get the Distribution Lists to show up in the
BCC line after 3 visists to my client's office. I thought we had
reached the end of the road until ..................

While DLs in Outlook appear to be fragile at times, they's always behaved
well ennough for me unless I did something wrong.

What on earth is going on? I finally managed to get these DLs into
Outlook and it still won't do the right thing. Migration between
Outlook and Outlook Express is a nightmare if you have to keep DLs
intact.

Well, Outlook Express doesn't have "DLs", it has "Groups". What steps did
you take to export the group? I just tested and my OE groups imported as
DLs with no problem whatsoever.

When I imported from OE initially not only did Outlook put
the items in a folder I did NOT select but it wiped out the OE
Addresss Book! Bravo Microsoft!

That just does not happen with me. Describe the exact steps you used.

 

[Brian Tillman]

So I want to move DLs from Outlook 2003 to Outlook 2003 on a differnt
machine I've basically had it?

Of course not. Just copy (wth Outlook closed) the PST containing the
contacts folder in which they reside and open that PST in the other Outlook.

 

[zaphod]

Why not two contacts folders in the same PST?

Becaus Outlook would not import the PST from the old PC with DLs intact.

While DLs in Outlook appear to be fragile at times, they's always
behaved well ennough for me unless I did something wrong.



Well, Outlook Express doesn't have "DLs", it has "Groups". What steps
did you take to export the group? I just tested and my OE groups
imported as DLs with no problem whatsoever.

Exporting from OE doesn't work if you want the groups intact so I had to
setup Outlook on the old PC to be able to import directly into Outlook using
the Import tool.

That just does not happen with me. Describe the exact steps you used.

1. Install Outlook 2003 on the old PC which has OE groups.
2. Create new Contacts subfolder within Outlook called "Backup" so that I
can move existing Contact items there and free Contacts for the incoming OE
items.
3. In Outlook move items from Contacts to Backup
4. In Outlook go to File > Import > Import Internet Mail & Addresses >
Outlook Express 4.x, 5.x, 6.x
5. Select Import Address Book
6. Replace duplicates with items imported
7. Finish

At this point the dialogue assures me that "Addresses will be imported into
your Outlook Contact Folder". Fine in theory. Here's what happened:

1. A dialogue box told me 0 addresses had been imported
2. All addresses and groups were wiped out of Outlook Express

At this point I was convinced I had destroyed my client's business address book.

3. Outlook had imported the OE addresses and groups but put them in the new
Backup folder I later discovered (to my relief/annoyance).
4. Outlook had given me the wrong message about not importig any addresses
successfully.

So, for an hour Outlook convinced me that not only had it wiped the OE
Address book but it hadn't imported anything at all. Explain that one,
Microsoft.

When I discovered the addresses and groups had been imported I quickly made
a backup and tried exporting to a PST file. This failed to keep the DLs
intact so I resorted to creating a second Personal Folder in Outlook on the
new PC, copied the system PST from the old PC and added it via Data File
Management.

The DLs now appeared intact within the new folder but when composing a
message they didn't appear in the Accounts list so I had to manually
instruct them to be included (nice default, Microsoft!).

I thought my problems were over but now, when I attempt to rationlise the 2
Personal Folders by moving the items from the new folder to the original
folder I hit a problem. When everything has been moved and the folder is
removed the imported DLs no longer contain any items! When I restore the
deleted Personal Folder they reappear ... within the OTHER Personal Folder.

All I can say is I'm glad I had the good sense many years ago to ditch
Outlook and go with Mozilla Mail. The nonesense that is going on with
groups/DLs between Outlook and Outlook Express beggars belief. Aren't you
ashamed to be working for a convicted monopolist who charges over £400 for
an office suite that can't even guarantee that a user's DLs/groups will
remain intact when backups are performed? With all its $billions are you
telling me that Microsoft cannot program such a simple task as maintaining
lists of email addresses without such complication and unreliability after
so many incarnations of Outlook?

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

You made life a lot harder than it needed to be. You could have used
file, open, outlook data file and opened the pst, not imported it. Then drag
the DL to the new pst. You also could have copied the wab to the new machine
and hooked OE to it - then tried the import. It's much easier than
installing outlook and moving the pst from machine to machine.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]
Author, Teach Yourself Outlook 2003 in 24 Hours
Coauthor, OneNote 2003 for Windows (Visual QuickStart Guide)
Author, Google and Other Search Engines (Visual QuickStart Guide)



Join OneNote Tips mailing list: http://www.onenote-tips.net/

 

[zaphod]

You made life a lot harder than it needed to be. You could have used
file, open, outlook data file and opened the pst, not imported it. Then drag
the DL to the new pst. You also could have copied the wab to the new machine
and hooked OE to it - then tried the import. It's much easier than
installing outlook and moving the pst from machine to machine.

But WHY is that easier? I mean, a PST produced by Outlook 2003 should be
easy to integrate with another instance of Outlook 2003. Surely this isn't
rocket science? Please explain why the original import from OE wiped the OE
Address Book, informed me that 0 items had been imported and then placed the
imported items in a folder other than the one it assured me they would be
sent to - Contacts. I'm all ears.

zaphod

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

Importing from OE does nothing to the original data source. You would have
to provide detailed steps as to what you did for us to understand why you
are the single exception to that.
As I said, importing has never preserved OE groups or Outlook DL's.

 

[zaphod]

Importing from OE does nothing to the original data source. You would have
to provide detailed steps as to what you did for us to understand why you
are the single exception to that.
As I said, importing has never preserved OE groups or Outlook DL's.

If that's the case why did Outlook successfully convert all the OE groups
into DLs despite telling me it hadn't converted anything and putting them in
the wrong place? When I finally located them they were all there in Outlook
but gone from OE.

zaphod

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

Please post consistent, factual information. First you post that importing
from OE "wiped out your OE Address Book."
That is not possible. If it happened, you would be the first.
Now you are posting a different question. Clarify it.

 

[zaphod]

Please post consistent, factual information. First you post that importing
from OE "wiped out your OE Address Book."
That is not possible. If it happened, you would be the first.
Now you are posting a different question. Clarify it.

Please elaborate as to what is supposed to be inconsistent about my post:

INITIAL POST
When I imported from
OE initially not only did Outlook put the items in a folder I did NOT select
but it wiped out the OE Addresss Book! Bravo Microsoft!

LATEST POST
If that's the case why did Outlook successfully convert all the OE groups
into DLs despite telling me it hadn't converted anything and putting them in
the wrong place? When I finally located them they were all there in Outlook
but gone from OE.


If you want me to split hairs/spell it out I swear on whoever's life that,
with my very own eyes, I didst open the Outlook Express Address Book after
ye olde import from within Outlook 2003 and, lo the contents of the Address
Book were indeed empty. Not one address remained therein and not a single
address was there to be found.

Wake up Microsoft and stop passing the buck. This is YOUR problem!

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

No one else has ever reported that importing OE's Address Book into Outlook
eliminated the WAB.
You did not post what you did, so we cannot tell what you did wrong.

 

[zaphod]

No one else has ever reported that importing OE's Address Book into Outlook
eliminated the WAB.
You did not post what you did, so we cannot tell what you did wrong.

If you had actually bothered to read my posts within this thread you would
find that I have already spelled out what I did in great detail. Try reading
my post dated 13/9/05, 01.30 in response to Brian Tillman.

zaphod

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

I read your posts. Nothing was clear. You changed issues in mid stream.
Nor have I ever seen anyone reproduce this behavior.
My cache has been cleared. I'll look over you posts again when I have time
to download them again.

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

OK. I found that part where you described the import from OE. You used a
very convoluted process that is still not clear to me. I can't tell where
things went wrong from your post, but I can tell you no one else has ever
wiped out OE's WAB by importing into Outlook. To work properly, importing of
addresses from OE should only be done from the Main Identity's default
Contacts Folder into Outlook's default Contacts Folder. Also, groups from OE
might appear as DL's in Outlook, but they don't work and must be recreated
from scratch using Outlook's Contacts.
Importing and exporting from Outlook have always been problematic. Once you
have data in a PST file, it's always best to avoid importing and exporting
from one installation of Outlook to another.

 

[zaphod]

Importing and exporting from Outlook have always been problematic. Once you
have data in a PST file, it's always best to avoid importing and exporting
from one installation of Outlook to another.

Then one can only conclude that Outlook is a pile of crap. Are you proud to
be working for a convicted monopoly that can't fix a simple problem like
this after 4 incarnations of Office? I'll advise my clients use anything
other than this colossal waste of time in future. Tell Bill Gates that some
of us don't have quite as much money as he does and that to us time is money.

zaphod