FP how much bloat

Jim Scott · Mar 14, 2005

Since composing my site (below) with FP, I am constantly finding critical
references to FP-bloat in other ngs. I understand what they mean, but since
I am conversant with FP I'd really like to stick with it. If I go on using
FP with rollover links and WordArt headings, what is the likely percentage
inflation as a result?
I constantly preview in the main three browsers so I know it renders ok. My
only concern would be the 10Mb limit set by my ISP.

Steve Easton · Mar 14, 2005

imho, FP "bloat" is an urban myth. Bloat is caused by the operator / web designer, not
the program.

I did notice however, that you mentioned "word art" which only works in Internet Explorer.
Most folks create the word art, then take a screen shot and convert it to an image so it
will render in all browsers.

hth

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
...............................with a computer

David Baxter · Mar 14, 2005

You'll generally hear complaints about FrontPage bloat from people
who've never even opened the box let alone used FP. It's a myth.

If you really want to see what code bloat looks like, have a look at
some of the pages Adobe GoLive creates.

But ultimately, any WYSIWYG program alone won't give you a page with
code that is quite as well-honed as getting into the HTML yourself. That
will be true for Dreamweaver users (the usual critics) as well.

For those who are truly intent on only the most efficient code, there's
always Notepad.. ;o)

Murray · Mar 14, 2005

I completely agree with this. In fact, it would be possible to make pages
with FP that are completely agnostic with regard to HTML authoring system.
Now GoLive? That's a horse of a different color! 8)

--
Murray
============

David Baxter said:
You'll generally hear complaints about FrontPage bloat from people
who've never even opened the box let alone used FP. It's a myth.

If you really want to see what code bloat looks like, have a look at
some of the pages Adobe GoLive creates.

But ultimately, any WYSIWYG program alone won't give you a page with
code that is quite as well-honed as getting into the HTML yourself. That
will be true for Dreamweaver users (the usual critics) as well.

For those who are truly intent on only the most efficient code, there's
always Notepad.. ;o)

Jim Scott · Mar 14, 2005

imho, FP "bloat" is an urban myth. Bloat is caused by the operator / web designer, not
the program.

I did notice however, that you mentioned "word art" which only works in Internet Explorer.
Most folks create the word art, then take a screen shot and convert it to an image so it
will render in all browsers.

hth

It *does* render in all browsers, as an image, without my help.
I use FP2002

Steve Easton · Mar 14, 2005

In a sense you are correct in that it does "normally" render in all browsers.
However, IE renders the actual vml from the source code / vector markup language in the
page, thereby actually creating the image "on the fly."

Other browsers actually display an "Alternate" image that is saved for this purpose when
the vml is created.
These "Alternate" images are "normally" degraded compared to the actual vml graphic.

So, since the other browsers render the alternate "image" why force the browser to parse a
bunch of unnecessary code.

Hence my suggestion / recommendation to take a screenshot and use the resulting image,
which by the way will be of the same **quality** in all browsers.

hth

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
...............................with a computer

Thomas A. Rowe · Mar 14, 2005

Only if download GIF is checked/selected under the VML option.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

converts to gif on unsupported browsers doesn't it?

Steve Easton said:
In a sense you are correct in that it does "normally" render in all browsers.
However, IE renders the actual vml from the source code / vector markup language in the
page, thereby actually creating the image "on the fly."

Other browsers actually display an "Alternate" image that is saved for this purpose when
the vml is created.
These "Alternate" images are "normally" degraded compared to the actual vml graphic.

So, since the other browsers render the alternate "image" why force the browser to parse a
bunch of unnecessary code.

Hence my suggestion / recommendation to take a screenshot and use the resulting image,
which by the way will be of the same **quality** in all browsers.

hth

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
..............................with a computer

Thomas A. Rowe · Mar 14, 2005

Correction:

download should have read, downlevel

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

ah. I had it confused with clip art wmfs, that seems to be converted to gifs when saved.

Thomas A. Rowe said:
Only if download GIF is checked/selected under the VML option.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

converts to gif on unsupported browsers doesn't it?

Jim Scott · Mar 15, 2005

imho, FP "bloat" is an urban myth. Bloat is caused by the operator / web designer, not
the program.

I did notice however, that you mentioned "word art" which only works in Internet Explorer.
Most folks create the word art, then take a screen shot and convert it to an image so it
will render in all browsers.

hth

OK I have started this process (and changing rollover to css).
Taking my index.html as an example, can I just clear the second line?
<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns

="urn:schemas-microsoft-com

ffice

ffice"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Steve Easton · Mar 15, 2005

Jim,
What I do when I want to use an image created using word art, is create it in a page totally
unrelated to the web site and then import the image I've just captured / created using the screen
shot method. Then when done, delete the page I used to create the word art / image.

That way you don't have to worry about getting rid of any "left behind" html / vml mark up in your
"genuine" web page.

Actually I have a separate web named "testing" on my machine, and that's where I do this sort of
stuff, test javascripts etc.
It's full of pages that are named for the function or item that was "tested" or created on the page.
hth

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer

Jim Scott · Mar 15, 2005

Jim,
What I do when I want to use an image created using word art, is create it in a page totally
unrelated to the web site and then import the image I've just captured / created using the screen
shot method. Then when done, delete the page I used to create the word art / image.

That way you don't have to worry about getting rid of any "left behind" html / vml mark up in your
"genuine" web page.

Actually I have a separate web named "testing" on my machine, and that's where I do this sort of
stuff, test javascripts etc.
It's full of pages that are named for the function or item that was "tested" or created on the page.
hth

Oh smashing. I'll just get on and re-do my 600+ pages.

(

Steve Easton · Mar 15, 2005

LOL.
In that case, depending upon the FrontPage version you have there is a method to remove
the un-needed vml mark up when you publish.

In FP 2003 it's done by right clicking the page in code view, and selecting Optimize html.

However, if you have removed the vml graphics from all pages in your site, you can use
global Replace, tell it to find: in HTML:

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns

="urn:schemas-microsoft-com

ffice

ffice"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

and simply leave the Replace side blank.

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
...............................with a computer

Ronx · Mar 15, 2005

You mean replace with "<html>" (without the quotes) ?

--
Ron Symonds
Microsoft MVP (FrontPage)
Reply only to group - emails will be deleted unread.

Steve Easton said:
LOL.
In that case, depending upon the FrontPage version you have there is
a method to remove
the un-needed vml mark up when you publish.

In FP 2003 it's done by right clicking the page in code view, and
selecting Optimize html.

However, if you have removed the vml graphics from all pages in your
site, you can use
global Replace, tell it to find: in HTML:

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

and simply leave the Replace side blank.

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
..............................with a computer

Murray · Mar 15, 2005

Heh - I hope so.

--
Murray
============

Ronx said:
You mean replace with "<html>" (without the quotes) ?

Jim Scott · Mar 15, 2005

LOL.
In that case, depending upon the FrontPage version you have there is a method to remove
the un-needed vml mark up when you publish.

In FP 2003 it's done by right clicking the page in code view, and selecting Optimize html.

However, if you have removed the vml graphics from all pages in your site, you can use
global Replace, tell it to find: in HTML:

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

and simply leave the Replace side blank.

I'm on 2002, but the find and replace worked. Thanks again.
The only problems keeping me from validation are BORDERCOLOR,
BORDERCOLORLIGHT and BORDERCOLORDARK.
I also think I might have to do all my thumbnails by hand as I keep getting
'there is no attribute "XTHUMBNAIL-ORIG-IMAGE"' and as fast as I replace
one, then another pops up.

Jim Scott · Mar 16, 2005

Good morning (UK). It's me again. Sorry

)

To prevent me from making the mistake of adding FP features that some
browsers don't like, can I untick boxes in
Tools/Page_Options/Compatibility?
If so, which boxes?

Ronx · Mar 17, 2005

Which browsers are your users using?

From FP2000/2002 I would uncheck VBscript (unless you are using ASP
pages), Java Applets, Active X Controls
From FP2003 (Authoring tab) I would additionally uncheck VML
graphics - this may also apply to FP2002 Compatibility tab.

If your target audience includes Netscape 4, also set browsers to
Netscape and IE., and disable DHTML and CSS2. (Actually, NN4 is happy
with a lot of DHTML and CSS2, but you have to know where to draw the
line.)
If your target audience also includes users of Lynx, then do not use
graphics on your site. (There isn't a setting for this).
These settings will probably cripple your web building abilities in
FP, it is more important for you to know which browsers your users
have, and what those browsers can handle, then design accordingly.

Jim Scott · Mar 17, 2005

Which browsers are your users using?

From FP2000/2002 I would uncheck VBscript (unless you are using ASP
pages), Java Applets, Active X Controls
From FP2003 (Authoring tab) I would additionally uncheck VML
graphics - this may also apply to FP2002 Compatibility tab.

If your target audience includes Netscape 4, also set browsers to
Netscape and IE., and disable DHTML and CSS2. (Actually, NN4 is happy
with a lot of DHTML and CSS2, but you have to know where to draw the
line.)
If your target audience also includes users of Lynx, then do not use
graphics on your site. (There isn't a setting for this).
These settings will probably cripple your web building abilities in
FP, it is more important for you to know which browsers your users
have, and what those browsers can handle, then design accordingly.

Who knows what browsers folk are using?
Before your list I had already lost faith in FP and am currently rebuilding
my entire site from scratch, without FP.

Murray · Mar 17, 2005

A developer should know this from looking at their clients, and at their
clients' customers. Server logs on similar client sites will help too.
While it's not something that can be known with absolute certaintly, it's
certainly something that can be approximated from this kind of information.

Jim Scott · Mar 17, 2005

A developer should know this from looking at their clients, and at their
clients' customers. Server logs on similar client sites will help too.
While it's not something that can be known with absolute certaintly, it's
certainly something that can be approximated from this kind of information.

Thanks. I do know what you mean, but many of us are not developers in the
sense you mean. Our websites are meant to be informative for a limited
number of people of similar interests, and 'pretty' only because there is
nothing worse than boring. I suspect that most of my 'clients use IE and it
is only because I have the time and the will, that I even bother with those
(like me) who use anything else. Using this ng has driven me unwillingly to
use 'correct' html, which was the last thing I wanted to do when I first
visited here.

FP how much bloat

Jim Scott

Steve Easton

David Baxter

Murray

Jim Scott

Steve Easton

Thomas A. Rowe

Thomas A. Rowe

Jim Scott

Steve Easton

Jim Scott

Steve Easton

Ronx

Murray

Jim Scott

Jim Scott

Ronx

Jim Scott

Murray

Jim Scott