Frames help?

J

JP

Hi. I'm sorry if this has been discussed repeatedly but I had a question
about using frames. I took over trying to do my school's website recently.
The guy who did it before me did a good job but he used frames in it, which I
have not used before. I know that he used the "header" frame template and
applied it to the whole website. I wanted to add a frame on the left side of
the screen to put any extra links I have left. My question is how do I go
about adding this 3rd frame and how would I apply it to all of the pages in
my site.

Also I tried doing this earlier and every frame I added had a scroll down
button. How do I get rid of the scroll down button too? Thanks for any help.

JP
 
J

Jon Spivey

Sorry to tell you but I'd start over and lose the frames. You can get the
same layout with tables or even divs if you want to get fancy - frames
really are more trouble than they're worth. If you can post up the site in
question we can probably give you better help.
 
T

Trevor L.

Jon,

I am still using frames, and the reason is that I don't have to repeat the
code on every page to get a fixed top and side border.

Is it possible to achieve this with tables or divs? That is, without having
to repeat the code.

--
Cheers,
Trevor L.


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T

Thomas A. Rowe

One option is the FP Include Page Component for both the top and side areas.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
J

JP

Hi. My site is www.mrparino.com

The header and frame works fine but I just need to get another frame on the
left side. And I am very new to using frames so I have no clue what to do to
fix it the way.

If I did end up having to do the site over with tables, would it be
extremely difficult to put the header and side links that I want to put in on
every page or would it be too much trouble? Thanks for any help. I really do
appreciate it.
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

I agree you should not use frames (especially w/ a dhtml menu system)

But if you must:
You actually have 3 frames on the frameset page
The top one is not showing up
- File Not found since it is illegally pointing to a .txt file: marquee1.txt
- recommend you delete it

Change

<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" rows="15,157,*">
<frame name="top" scrolling="no" noresize target="middle" marginwidth="1" marginheight="1" src="marquee1.txt">
<frame name="middle" target="bottom" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" scrolling="no" noresize src="hp_header.htm">
<frame name="bottom" target="bottom" marginwidth="1" marginheight="2" scrolling="auto" src="welcome.htm">

To
<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" rows="157,*">
<frame name="middle" target="bottom" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" scrolling="no" noresize src="hp_header.htm">
<frame name="bottom" target="bottom" marginwidth="1" marginheight="2" scrolling="auto" src="welcome.htm">


To split the bottom frame change the last frame page to another frameset

From

<frame name="bottom" target="bottom" marginwidth="1" marginheight="2" scrolling="auto" src="welcome.htm">

to

<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" cols="150,*">
<frame name="left" target="bottom" marginwidth="1" marginheight="2" scrolling="auto" src="yournewleftframe.htm">
<frame name="bottom" target="bottom" marginwidth="1" marginheight="2" scrolling="auto" src="welcome.htm">
</frameset>


_____________________________________________
SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
"Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
_____________________________________________


| Hi. My site is www.mrparino.com
|
| The header and frame works fine but I just need to get another frame on the
| left side. And I am very new to using frames so I have no clue what to do to
| fix it the way.
|
| If I did end up having to do the site over with tables, would it be
| extremely difficult to put the header and side links that I want to put in on
| every page or would it be too much trouble? Thanks for any help. I really do
| appreciate it.
|
 
J

JP

Hi again. I actually changed the frame template on my page and modified it to
the way I wanted it to look (www.mrparino.com). I tried to include 2 pages
opn the top and side of the page, but I want it so that when I click on a
link on the left side or in the pop up menu on the top frame, it will open in
the main frame (the bottom right). I can't seem to change the target frame of
the top and left frames to the main. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

Currently all of your links, point back to the content on your local machine...

1. When you work on your local web content, you MUST first open a web / site via FP's File Menu |
Open web / Site command.

2. All content used in your web / site must either be created within or imported in to this current
open FP web / site.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
J

JP

Okay I fixed the links on the left frame but on the top frame when I click a
link in the pop up menu, it cause the whole page to turn into the new page.
How do I set it so that when I click a link in the pop up menu, it opens in
the main frame? Thanks for any help.
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

You need to review the documentation that came with your application the you are using to create the
menu, as you should not be opening a new window, you need to set the target value the name of the
frame. This is not a FP issue.

You really should consider not using frames, as your user will be able to enjoy the site more
without them.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
T

Trevor L.

JP

Thomas and others have advised not to use frames

However, I am still using them until I can find out how to avoid duplicating
the code which is in the frames

My index.html contains this

<frameset rows ="72,*" >
<frame src="heading.html" scrolling="no" noresize="noresize">
<frameset cols="120,*">
<frame src="sidebar.html" scrolling="no" noresize="noresize">
<frame src="index_main.html" name="index_main">
</frameset>
</frameset>

My links contain this
<a href="about.html" target="index_main">

This does the job, if you wish to stick with frames.
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
Website: http://tandcl.homemail.com.au


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
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T

Thomas A. Rowe

I agree with Murray.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
T

Trevor L.

Murray and Thomas,

Forgive me for being stupid, but aren't includes FPs way of inserting the
code into each page in which it is included

So, if I have my set-up
<frameset rows ="72,*" >
<frame src="heading.html" scrolling="no" noresize="noresize">
<frameset cols="120,*">
<frame src="sidebar.html" scrolling="no" noresize="noresize">
<frame src="index_main.html" name="index_main">
</frameset>
</frameset>

Let's say heading is 2KB, sidebar is 3KB, and index_main is 4 KB (it isn't,
but for sake of argument).
Then for each page which includes these two, there is an overhead of 5 KB.
With 10 pages (each 4KB) the total would be 10*9 = 90KB

But with frames, it would be 5KB + size of page
So, if each page is 4 KB, 10 pages would be 5 + 10*4 = 45 KB.

The larger the heading and sidebar, the larger would be the overhead

I haven't used templates, but I thought these were similar.

I am not arguing for frames, I am simply trying to find the facts. I may
have it completely wrong.

I have heard of server-side includes, but I know nothing about them. Don't
they need FPSE? If so, my ISP doesn't provide this as yet (maybe in the
future)

Hoping to learn from you both, or you-all, as they might say in the South
(of US)
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
Website: http://tandcl.homemail.com.au


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

You are correct, however using FP Includes will just make it easier for your site visitors to
navigation your site and add individual pages to their favorites, etc.

However the overhead is per page and would really only apply to the first page loaded, but content
such as images would be cache and would not have to be downloaded for each page (if absolute URL is
used to images).

With your frameset, the frameset page and all individual pages and images would have to load only
first access, which would be longer than the single page.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
M

Murray

Right - of course the cache thing also applies to frames pages so it's a
push in that regard.

The real reason to worry about duplicated code would be related to
maintenance of the site. Any change in the duplicated code would need to be
made on each page that carries it. This is the largest appeal of frames to
new developers (I think). And it shouldn't be. It's good in that it shows
they are thinking about the site properly, but templates/includes solves the
maintenance problems in such an easy way (and without all the real
difficulties of frames) that it's a compelling method to use.
 
T

Trevor L.

Murray,
You have been a great help to me lately. I also thank Thomas for his advice.

Let me see if I have got it right.
"templates/includes solves the maintenance problems in such an easy way "

If that is true, I will go with it, although it may mean that I have to do
all my maintenance in FP. And since this is an FP newsgroup, it may be
sacrilege to suggest doing otherwise.

But I am finding that FP is really just a starting point in developing a
website. Now that I know a bit of CSS and Javascript, I find myself changing
code outside FP. FP is great for publishing of course because it keeps track
of changed files and only re-loads them.

My understanding of includes is that using an include in FP creates a webbot
(is that the correct term?) which includes the code when the page is saved
or published.

However, I don't know a thing about templates. I assume they are a sort of
dummy page, where you set up everything you want globally, and then when you
want to change part of that, you include some other code and save it to a
specific page.

My words are not very clear so maybe my thnking isn't either. I suppose I
will just have to try it to find out :))
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
Website: http://tandcl.homemail.com.au

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.frontpage.client
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Frames help?

Right - of course the cache thing also applies to frames pages so it's a
push in that regard.

The real reason to worry about duplicated code would be related to
maintenance of the site. Any change in the duplicated code would need to be
made on each page that carries it. This is the largest appeal of frames to
new developers (I think). And it shouldn't be. It's good in that it shows
they are thinking about the site properly, but templates/includes solves the
maintenance problems in such an easy way (and without all the real
difficulties of frames) that it's a compelling method to use.
 
M

Murray

If that is true, I will go with it, although it may mean that I have to do
all my maintenance in FP. And since this is an FP newsgroup, it may be
sacrilege to suggest doing otherwise.
Click to expand...

It doesn't mean that at all, nor does using FP for maintenance require you
to use anything other than code view.
I find myself changing code outside FP.
Click to expand...

My understanding of includes is that using an include in FP creates a
webbot (is that the correct term?) which includes the code when the page
is saved or published.
Click to expand...

Yes - that's correct, I believe.
However, I don't know a thing about templates. I assume they are a sort of
dummy page, where you set up everything you want globally, and then when
you want to change part of that, you include some other code and save it
to a specific page.
Click to expand...

Read FP's Help files on Templates. It sounds to me like you have the
basics, though.

The advantage to either approach is that a single change to the controlling
file (either the file being included, or the template file) affects all
'linked' pages. So - even though your navigation element is contained on 50
pages, a single change would be echoed to each of those 50 pages.

As you mention, the best way to 'get it' is to try it.
 
T

Trevor L.

Murray,

Thanks for persevering with me
If that is true, I will go with it, although it may mean that I have to do
all my maintenance in FP. And since this is an FP newsgroup, it may be
sacrilege to suggest doing otherwise.
Click to expand...

It doesn't mean that at all, nor does using FP for maintenance require you
to use anything other than code view.

Are you saying it doesn't mean "it may be sacrilege" or that it doesn't mean "I have to do all my maintenance in FP"? A moot point anyway. :)
I find myself changing code outside FP.
Click to expand...

<shrug> Why not use code view inside FP?

Yes, you are correct. I alternate between using code view in FP and UltraEdit which is sensitive to HTML code and highlights keywords quite nicely.
My understanding of includes is that using an include in FP creates a
webbot (is that the correct term?) which includes the code when the page
is saved or published.
Click to expand...

Yes - that's correct, I believe.
However, I don't know a thing about templates. I assume they are a sort of
dummy page, where you set up everything you want globally, and then when
you want to change part of that, you include some other code and save it
to a specific page.
Click to expand...

Read FP's Help files on Templates. It sounds to me like you have the
basics, though.

O.K. Will do

The advantage to either approach is that a single change to the controlling
file (either the file being included, or the template file) affects all
'linked' pages. So - even though your navigation element is contained on 50
pages, a single change would be echoed to each of those 50 pages.

That is what I want (changes being echoed) and was my main reason for using frames

As you mention, the best way to 'get it' is to try it.--
Murray
============

--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
Website: http://tandcl.homemail.com.au


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
M

Murray

See below -

--
Murray
============

Murray,

Thanks for persevering with me
If that is true, I will go with it, although it may mean that I have to do
all my maintenance in FP. And since this is an FP newsgroup, it may be
sacrilege to suggest doing otherwise.
Click to expand...

It doesn't mean that at all, nor does using FP for maintenance require you
to use anything other than code view.

Are you saying it doesn't mean "it may be sacrilege" or that it doesn't mean
"I have to do all my maintenance in FP"? A moot point anyway. :)

*** It doesn't mean that you have to do your maintenance in FP, and it's not
sacrilege to suggest it.
I find myself changing code outside FP.
Click to expand...

<shrug> Why not use code view inside FP?

Yes, you are correct. I alternate between using code view in FP and
UltraEdit which is sensitive to HTML code and highlights keywords quite
nicely.

*** Once you learn how, you will never go back! 8)
My understanding of includes is that using an include in FP creates a
webbot (is that the correct term?) which includes the code when the page
is saved or published.
Click to expand...

Yes - that's correct, I believe.
However, I don't know a thing about templates. I assume they are a sort of
dummy page, where you set up everything you want globally, and then when
you want to change part of that, you include some other code and save it
to a specific page.
Click to expand...

Read FP's Help files on Templates. It sounds to me like you have the
basics, though.

O.K. Will do

The advantage to either approach is that a single change to the controlling
file (either the file being included, or the template file) affects all
'linked' pages. So - even though your navigation element is contained on 50
pages, a single change would be echoed to each of those 50 pages.

That is what I want (changes being echoed) and was my main reason for using
frames

*** Go for it!

As you mention, the best way to 'get it' is to try it.--
Murray
============

--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
Website: http://tandcl.homemail.com.au


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
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