Is Access Stable???

B

bladelock

I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
"sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?
 
V

Van T. Dinh

Since you already had experience with Access, why would you listen to people
who may not be as experienced as you?

Just for the records, some regular respondents have reported databases with
50 + users (20 + are constantly on the database) that work fine without any
problem. OTOH, bad database design & implementation lead to all sorts of
problems even for one user.
 
R

Ron Hinds

bladelock said:
I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
"sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?

It all depends on how good your code is. I had one with multiple back-end
databases several hundred MB in size and 40-50 front-end users. It finally
became a performance issue and I had to move the back-end to "sequel" (i.e.
Microsoft SQL Server). Access should be easily able to handle 15 users. I
can tell you that migrating your app to SQL Server is no walk in the park!
 
6

'69 Camaro

I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access
is
no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data.

Access in the hands of an expert database developer is very stable and far
cheaper than any equivalently functioning alternative. Access in the hands
of novice usually leads to numerous problems, and can become an utter
disaster. The Microsoft Access development team has admitted that the most
common cause for database corruption is sharing of a multiuser database file.
Novices build an Access database for their own use and then later share it
on the network -- without even considering splitting it into a front end and
back end or networking issues. They have huge performance hits, because the
database was pretty fast on the user's local machine so many required
database application development techniques were ignored, like normalization,
primary keys and indexes. And when the database curruption starts they blame
Access, not the lack of skills of the developer.
I've been using it for 5
years, and never had a problem.

That's because you've been doing many things correctly, whereas these
naysayers haven't. They don't know how to avoid problems which, admittedly,
takes some experience.

If a multiuser database is designed correctly with a split front end and
back end, all users are given Windows "Full control" security permissions on
the network shared directory, and all users are only reading the records,
instead of inserting, updating and deleting records, then the database could
handle more than 100 concurrent users. (The actual limit is 255, but it's
pretty hard to get close to that number.) However, real life doesn't give us
such an ideal scenario.

The number of concurrent users will be limited to the amount of network
traffic and the amount of record lock contention. The record lock contention
can be controlled to some degree by the efficiency of the database design and
database application design. This is where experienced Access database
developers are worth their weight in gold, because they can often create a
fairly robust database system with Access, instead of creating a much more
expensive database system with SQL Server, Oracle, or another RDBMS.

So, the limit on concurrent users depends upon the needs of the database
application, the amount of record lock contention, the network and how it
handles traffic, and the expertise of the database developer. This limit
could be from one user to 30 or more concurrent users in a reliable Access
database system, depending upon all of these factors.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips.

(Please remove ZERO_SPAM from my reply E-mail address so that a message will
be forwarded to me.)
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If my answer has helped you, please sign in and answer yes to the question
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correctly.
 
A

aaron.kempf

i think that you guys are crazy; i haven't ever had more than 10 users
in a MDB without problems.

I jsut think that MDB is about as irrelevent as XLS-- it's not a real
db and if you're going to build it from scratch-- do it as an ACCESS
DATA PROJECT.

Migrating your app to SQL __IS__ a walk in the park; because you dont
have to run around dealing with this kinda bullshit:

a) awful performance- across a network especially
b) versioning hell whenever you change a query
c) inability to take good backups of your data (people leave it open at
night for example)
d) mdb queries SUCK-- MDB queries just randomly crap out when you start
stacking them on top of each other
e) bloat - waiting for a 200mb file to copy across the network; and
copying it 15 times.. you'd be much better off with SQL
 
A

aaron.kempf

i dont agree with your diagnosis.

i have had numerous problems with even 3 or 5 users against an MDB. a
small MDB; 50mb.

i've been at a dozen different clients with 100 MDB files and i dont
believe that it is the right architecture for anyone for any reason.

it's slow, not stable, and it's not secure

i mean.. do you guys have any fucking clue how bad the
spyware/malware/adware problem is?

and you guys just sit around with your pants down; chilling; keeping
your confidential information in a database thats, what... IMPOSSIBLE
to secure? (MDB)

with SQL Server you at least have SOME protection.

I know what im doing; thanks for trying to attack me.
just because i think that you guys are all full of shit and MDB is for
babies-- that doesn't mean im a newbie.

thanks anyways.

ACCESS DATA PROJECTS rock. anyone that tells you otherwise is too
stupid to learn SQL Server.
 
T

Tony Toews

bladelock said:
I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
"sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?

IMNSHO developers are seldom the cause of corruptions. Sharing the FE
or the combined MDB in A2000 and newer is high as a cause. In the
past OpLocks was definitely a cause but the SPs have been out long
enough that this cause has significantly decreased. Intermittently
flaky hardware is also a cause.

Yes, SQL Server is a solution. However it can be expensive and
increase the time to create a solution. Also many IT departments won't
allow you access to their SQL Server systems without using their own
staff. Which is somewhat understandable at times but obviously can be
a pain.

I have a former client running 25 users all day long on the MDB. That
said only ten of them are actually doing updates.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
A

aaron.kempf

you dont THINK that your security has been breached.

but you sit out there with unsecured data and just hope.

I've worked on a LOT of heavy-user systems. And it has just left me
with a bad taste in my mouth. If you're implying that 'everything is
peachy now in access 2003'

THEN YOU NEED TO TELL THOSE ASSHOLES IN REDMOND TO FIX IT IN ACCESS
2000. FIX IT IN ACCESS 2002.

I dont think that FREE is too expensive for anything. MSDE is FREE.
Every person in the world should have their own copy of MSDE on the
desktop; and when apps get to be completed; you move them to the
network.

no more spreadsheet dorks.
no more mdb-kiddies.

AND NO MORE CRYSTAL REPORTS.

ADP are the best platforms in the world. SQL Server doesn't just
'flake out' like MDB does

and just for the record.. NO.. I DONT THINK THAT YOU GUYS HAVE ANY
COMPREHENSION HOW BAD THE SPYWARE / MALWARE / ADWARE PROBLEM IS.

I worked at the worlds most successful software company for almost a
year; i was working for the worlds largest antivirus vendor.

AND WE HAD 5,000 OUTBREAKS PER QUARTER????

i mean-- 5,000 times we had people sniffing around; capturing
passwords; trojan this; sniffer that.. i mean.. HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS
OF VARIANTS PER DAY.

And you guys just leave your data unprotected.

It's called UNFUCKINGRESPONSIBLE

Access MDB security is a joke. with SQL you've got SOME protection.
With MDB-- i mean.. what, do you guys honestly store your credit card
transactions in MDB?

Because I dont think that there is a BIT of difference between a credit
card transaction and a marketing db that has peoples' emails.
It's all CONFIDENTIAL information.


AREN'T YOU GUYS TIRED OF:

a) data corruption
b) crap performance-- screw mdb with a fork
c) linking, refreshing
d) DSNs

with ADP; you have a single connection to a single database; and it's
friggin BEAUTIFUL.

you dont have to ask people to leave the app in order to do EVERY
LITTLE THING

i mean--- MDB was obsolete 10 years ago. I'm sorry that you guys don't
make a decent enough wage to get an EDUCATION.

TAKE SOME SQL CLASSES AND GET IT DONE.

MDB is a waste of time; a disease. it's a crutch.
 
A

aaron.kempf

shit

you think that im too blinded by my own opinions?

im sorry that i haven't been brainwashed into accepting this MDB
mediocrity
i mean-- the program is CRAP and you guys have been spoonfed crap for
so long you dont have any concept that there is an easier way.

go and play with spreadsheets and aol until 2090-- maybe MDB will be
back in fashion by then lol-- see if i care

there is a better way; it is called MSDE / ADP

-aaron
 
A

aaron.kempf

and just for the record; i was originally a comm major in college

that's the funny part.. i can't communicate my way out of a paper bag
lol

at least i dont still use training wheels
 
T

Tony Toews

David S via AccessMonster.com said:
Actually, you communicate your opinions very well; it's just that you
ridicule and insult other opinions, thereby devaluing your own amongst the
wider section of the community. Mounting personal attacks against others is a
lousy way to convince other peopel you're right, although if you care more
about being right than helping people, no doubt it makes you feel better.

I'm curious as to why you even bother to hang out in this newsgroup, since
all your stock answer for everything is "use ADP". I would have thought that
it was self evident that people posting here are looking for advice more
useful to their immedaite situation. You might as well say "use Java" or "use
C#" - it might be a nice thing to do in the longer term, but the effort
involved in redeveloping everything that's already working is hard to justify
to anybody who values the end application over the technology used to achieve
it...

Now this is interesting. I see your reply but I don't see the posting
to which you are replying.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
A

aaron.kempf

i dont believe that it is a complete redevelopment.

i have written tools to automate the heck out of it.. i mean.. in the
end it all comes down to automating the creation of views and sprocs..
everythign else is pretty straightforward

i just think that more people should give it a shot.. especially DAPs.
i mean.. DAPs against SQL Server are really really easy to setup if you
use an ADP.

and the bottom line is that if you keep your data in a ADP you can
safely cross the 2gb limit; and you can start having really exciting
applications.

i'd like to see some professional grade ADP apps come out.. i mean--
who wants to help me rewrite quickbooks as an ADP for example??

i just know that all of these tedium that you guys get so caught up
on-- it would all be so much easier if you really gave ADP a fair
shake.

and it's a shame that you guys haven't picked up on this already.. i
mean.. it's been 5 years, right?

i've built dozens of complex ADP. i've built IDS, EIS, ERP, CRM.. i've
built financial apps up the ying-yang.

i just think that ADP is a much much much stronger option that MDB. i
mean.. UDFs.. being able to write UDFs in SQL Server is like the most
revolutionary thing in the world.

sure it's similiar in MDB. but it's much better in ADP.

i just think that you guys are crazy for still worrying about stuff
like link this; and spt-- that's sql passthrough that.. and connection
string this.. reports that take 2 minutes to run..

i mean.. none of this crap-- none of it-- is in ADP.

you dont have queries that 'just crap out' like you do in MDB.

it just boggles my mind that you guys haven't seen the light.

sprocs and views are more powerful than MDB.

sure-- MDB is really really nice for a lot of things-- but anything
that just involves shipping around a couple of ADO commands; anything
that just involves simple bound forms and reports---

you guys would be much better off in ADP.

and if you have a bug in ADP-- email me about it; and i'll hound the
shit out of microsoft to get it fixed.

because im that guy.

i want ADP to succeed.

I wouldn't be making $60/hour right now if it wasn't for ADP. I am
officially a SQL Server badass.

I would be an Access developer, struggling to make $30/hour.

AND MY SKILLSET FROM MDB CARRIED OVER DIRECTLY TO ADP.

I mean-- it's a real natual progression. Analysis Services-- I mean..
come on.. it's like the best stuff ever invented.

Do you really want to do OLAP against MDB?

I mean.. seriously-- what happens when you get more than 100k rows and
it starts taking 10 minutes to do anything..

I mean seriously here kids

SQL Server is a step in the right direction.

Giving your QUERIES the scalability and performance of SQL Server.. I
mean.. it's a no-brainer.

Especially because it's free for 2 processors with MSDE. Right?

It's free to 2gb space-- just like MDB.. and it's MUCH easier to link
between databases in SQL Server than in MDB. I mean.. it doesn't take
ANY configuation.

I just wish you guys the best of luck.

I've been travelling the world making mad money.. I've got jobs coming
out of my ears-- I mean.. this market is wonderful; isn't it?

It just boggles my mind.

I see SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many Access developers making $20/hour
wondering what direction the sun is going to rise from tomorrow.

The day has come; drop everythign you're doing in MDB and start doing
it in ADP.

I mean-- the sproc designer tools in ADP-- it's just BEAUTIFUL compared
to MDB.

I just wish that you guys would willingly open your eyes and give it a
test run..

shit, give it 6 months of your life.

and you won't ever look back.

It's just a much much much simpler existence than dealing with DSN this
and named instance this; and DAO this.. and reports that take 2 minutes
to run.

Aren't you guys tired of that?

Don't you think that your clients are tired of that??
 
T

Tom Wickerath

Hi Tony,

I noticed the same thing when reading this thread using the Microsoft web
portal:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...n-us&mid=6a59fbb3-11bd-4959-a106-b671e96a43df


However, the entire thread is available at Google Groups:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr...*+author:kempf&rnum=14&hl=en#96472a0bff056612

According to a person in the know, who sent me a private e-mail message, 43
of Aaron's messages that he has posted since 10/24 have been purged from
Microsoft's news server. This is no doubt due to the foul language that he
continues to use in nearly every post. Did you catch the abusive reply that
he made to me the other day? Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...cess&mid=b0955b64-0cd8-4475-86bf-88dc2a39b363

I'm surprised he attacked me with such vigor. After all, I did not say
anything bad about Data Access Pages. I simply stated that I don't tend to
use them. Oh well. I noticed that Aaron has not replied back to that thread
with any advice for the OP. He's Mr. DAP expert, but when it comes to
actually helping someone out, there's no substance behind all the hot air.

Tom
______________________________________________

:

Now this is interesting. I see your reply but I don't see the posting
to which you are replying.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Tony Toews

i dont agree with your diagnosis.

i have had numerous problems with even 3 or 5 users against an MDB. a
small MDB; 50mb.

Ah, so a carpenter blames his tools?
i've been at a dozen different clients with 100 MDB files and i dont
believe that it is the right architecture for anyone for any reason.
it's slow, not stable,
Rubbish.

and it's not secure

So what. Most people don't need secur.
i mean.. do you guys have any fucking clue how bad the
spyware/malware/adware problem is?

and you guys just sit around with your pants down; chilling; keeping
your confidential information in a database thats, what... IMPOSSIBLE
to secure? (MDB)

And if the data is not worth securing?
I know what im doing; thanks for trying to attack me.

We're just disagreeing.
just because i think that you guys are all full of sh*t and MDB is for
babies-- that doesn't mean im a newbie.

You're the person who is insulting the rest of us.
ACCESS DATA PROJECTS rock. anyone that tells you otherwise is too
stupid to learn SQL Server.

ADPs have their problems and quirks too.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Tony Toews

i think that you guys are crazy; i haven't ever had more than 10 users
in a MDB without problems.

Then maybe it's your network.
I jsut think that MDB is about as irrelevent as XLS-- it's not a real
db and if you're going to build it from scratch-- do it as an ACCESS
DATA PROJECT.

Or use linked tables and linked views.
Migrating your app to SQL __IS__ a walk in the park; because you dont
have to run around dealing with this kinda bullsh*t:

No, migrating an app to SQL Server can be a fair bit of work.
a) awful performance- across a network especially
Wrong

b) versioning hell whenever you change a query

Very seldom I ever change a query without having to change a form or report.
c) inability to take good backups of your data (people leave it open at
night for example)

There are solutions to that. You can kick people out after an hour of inactivity.
HOW TO: Detect User Idle Time or Inactivity in Access 2000 (Q210297)
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=210297
ACC: How to Detect User Idle Time or Inactivity (Q128814)
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=128814
d) mdb queries SUCK-- MDB queries just randomly crap out when you start
stacking them on top of each other

The few times I've had that problem they were getting very ugly.
e) bloat - waiting for a 200mb file to copy across the network; and
copying it 15 times.. you'd be much better off with SQL

Why would you be copying a 200 mb file across the network 15 times? Sure Access is
inefficient when it comes to moving data across a network but it certainly doesn't
copy the entire MDB across the network. Unless, of course, you haven't indexed your
tables properly. Which you should be doing in SQL Server anyhow.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Tony Toews

MDB is a waste of time; a disease. it's a crutch.

Please repost without the foul language and I'll be happy to respond.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
A

aaron.kempf

yeah.. now seriously.. you guys run MDB across a network and you get
decent performance??

hahahahahahhaha

what are you guys trying to sell

i mean-- MDB across ANY network is an abuse of end users.
Reports shoudln't take 2 minutes to run. Having _ANYTHING_ run across
a network in MDB slows things down by a factor of about 3.

IN MY OPINION THAT IS CALLED A BUG AND THEY RELEASED A PATCH FOR THIS 5
YEARS AGO. THIS PATCH IS CALLED ADP.

Tom

When someone asks for help with DAPs and you dont know anyhting about
DAPs -- THEN KEEP YOUR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT ASSHOLE

You guys run around and squash innovation all the time

IM NOT THE MONKEY THAT IS RUNNING AROUND SAYING
'USE ADP'
'USE ADP'
'USE ADP'
'USE ADP'
'USE ADP'
'USE ADP'


You guys are the idiots that are running around saying
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'
'USE MDB'


When you guys stop being BIGOTs and RACISTs then maybe i'll stop
fighting this holy war.

And Tony-- just for the record

I'LL FUCKING SWEAR WHEREEVER AND WHENEVER I WANT TO.

I'M SORRY THAT YOUR MOTHER DRESSES YOU FUNNY. I'M SORRY THAT YOU GUYS
ALL BUTT-DOUCHE WITH MDB

MDB IS ABOUT AS GAY AND OBSOLETE AS YOU CAN GET.
 
A

aaron.kempf

and just for the record

MICROSOFT DOESN'T CENSOR ME FOR POOR LANGUAGE

THEY ##CENSOR## ME BECAUSE I SPEAK THE TRUTH.

HOW MANY FAT LAZY MICROSOFT PRODUCT MANAGERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A
LIGHTBULB??

Wait a second.. just give me a second.. I'm just waiting for the mdb to
open to give me the answer
 
A

aaron.kempf

you think that maybe it's my network?

come on Tony.. do you work for the evil empire?

always trying to pass the buck onto someone else??

NOTHING IS WRONG WITH MY NETWORK I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING
YOU SEE-- I'M NOT A MDB-KIDDIE THAT IS STUCK IN 1997.. I HAVE
PROGRESSED INTO SQL SERVER AND I'M QUITE STRONG WITH WINDOWS AND
NETWORKING THANK YOU.

DONT TRY TO BLAME THIS ON THINGS OTHER THAN MDB.

MDB IS CRAP.
MDB HAS ALWAYS BEEN CRAP.

MDB WILL ALWAYS BE CRAP.

IM SO SORRY THAT YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO WRITE REAL SQL STATEMENTS TONY.
GROW UP AND STOP PICKING ON ME FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH.

IT'S A FREE COUNTRY. YOU CAN PLAY WITH YOUR MDBs ALL YOU WANT; LIKE A
LITTLE GIRLY-MAN
I MEAN WAKE UP KIDS

SQL SERVER SPROCS AND VIEWS ARE JUST BLATANTLY MORE POWERFUL THAN MDB
QUERIES.

I MEAN-- YOU DONT HAVE TO ALWAYS ACCOUNT FOR ACCESS FLAKINESS.

LIKE BEING ABLE TO TAKE A COLUMN IN ACCESS- IT IS CALLED EMPLOYEEID.
if it is a null value; you want it to be ZERO.

So what are your choices.. calling it 'EMPLOYEEIDNEW'

That is just stupid
the absolutely most stupid thing i've ever seen in my life.


I shoudl be able to take the column named EMPLOYEEID and add 1000000 TO
IT AND STILL CALL IT EMPLOYEEID.

I MEAN-- AREN'T YOU TIRED OF GOING THROUGH AND REWRITING EVERYTHING
WHENEVER YOU CHANGE A COLUMN NAME IN A QUERY?

IN ADP YOU DONT HAVE THESE TYPES OF RIDICULOUS LIMITS.
 
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