List Style or Multi-Level List - Best Practice?

[Julian Turner]

Hello

I use multi-level lists extensively in legal documents that I author,
and I am looking for some opinions as to whether, in the future, I
should be using List Styles or sticking with the older Multi-Level
Lists

The reason for my question is because I am not clear which is more
flexible and which is the future, or indeed how the two relate to each
other:-

(a) Microsoft's online web-site web site says that "list styles" are
not as flexible (because you cannot attach paragraph styles) and
should only be used with simple lists. But is this wrong? In
practice you can associate paragraph styles to list styles, using the
modify > numbering dialogue, which takes you back to a full multi-
level list dialogue. I.e. List Styles seems to be able to link to a
full-multi-level list template, but I am not clear how that link works
and if it is linking to the same thing as a normal multi-level list.
Also there is that odd fact that if you link a list style level to a
paragraph style, the list style seems to lose track of the linked
paragraph style if you later modify the numbering indents etc.

(b) Word 2007 help says that "list styles" are more flexible,
because you can modify them, whereas modifying a multi-level list
creates a new multi-level list (and chaos follows).

To give you an idea of my level of knowledge, I am quite familiar with
Visual Basic and the Word Object Model, and have historically micro-
managed my lists directly though Visual Basic.

My lists (as they appear in the style manager) tend to follow the
followng pattern

L1_BASE (base style for list, all others inherit from it)

1. L1_BODY (numbered, but not bold - this is the linked style for
Level 1 in the list)
1. L1_HEADING (bold, inherits from L1_BODY, and so inherits the
list)
L1_NONUM (no numbering, inherits from L2_BODY)

1.1 L2_BODY
1.1 L2_HEADING (bold, inherits from L2_BODY)
L2_NONUM (no numbering, inherits from L2_BODY)

1.1.1L3_BODY
1.1.1L3_HEADING (bold, inherits from L3_BODY)
L3_NONUM (no numbering, inherits from L3_BODY)

The reason for having a non-heading, heading and no-number for each
level is that sometimes in legal documents you want the convenience of
all three.

This all works fine, and I have successfully implemented it both
normal multi-level lists and recently through a List Style .

Interestingly, the Bold for the HEADING style works on the list number
because although the multi-level outline overrides paragraph styles,
if the Bold property for the number > font is not set with either True
or False (i.e. it is wdUndefined), the override does not happen.

Julian

 

[Julian Turner]

Hello

I use multi-level lists extensively in legal documents that I author,
and I am looking for some opinions as to whether, in the future, I
should be using List Styles or sticking with the older Multi-Level
Lists

The reason for my question is because I am not clear which is more
flexible and which is the future, or indeed how the two relate to each
other:-

Ah Ha

I think I am getting a bit further with my understanding (please
someone correct me if I am wrong).

Essentially, by using a list style, you always know what ListTemplate
your paragraph points to.

What do I mean?

(a) Classic

In the classic situation, a P links directly to a ListTemplate

P > ListTemplate

The ListTemplate has the function of both identifying what "list" P is
part of, and also the formatting.

I later modify that ListTemplate (e.g. make the numbering bold), word
creates a brand new ListTemplate to contain the modification, and also
keeps the old ListTemplate.

So the problem arises, which ListTemplate does P point to. I.e. there
is potential for confusion about what "list" P belongs to.

I guess this is where problems and bugs arise, especially if you then
paste into a document paragraphs based on the older ListTemplate.

(b) List Styles

If I use a list style, then the linkage I think is more indirect (I
believe).

P > "Named" List Style > ListTemplate

I.e. it separates (1) what list P belongs to, from (2) what format
does that list numbering scheme have.

Here, if I modify the ListTemplate, then yes, there is still the
problem as to what ListTemplate the Named List Style points to; but as
regards P, it always points to the same "Named" List Style and so is
always part of that "Named" list, whatever ListTemplate that "Named"
list points to.

I.e. there is never any confusion about what "list" P belongs to
(athough there may be confusion about what format that list has).

(c) There are still potential problems

I am still experimenting, but one problem still potentially arises (I
think in Word 2007, but not before).

I think if you want to link your ListTemplate with Paragraph Styles,
then the problem can arise that if you modify the ListTemplate for a
List Style, it loses the link to the Paragraph Style. I.e. remember
that a ListTemplate is immutable - it is copied when it is modified.
In that copying process, I think Word 2007 loses some information. I
could be wrong, and certainly it does not seem to be a problem in Word
2002.

Julian

 

[Stefan Blom]

In a nutshell, the list style does what "modifying the numbering
formatting via the top-level style" (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html) did in
previous versions, that is, it ensures (or tries to ensure) that you access
the same list template, as you modify the multilevel (outline) numbering in
a document.

However, the list style does not replace attaching numbering levels to
paragraph styles, and the best way to *apply* numbering is still via
paragraph styles.

 

[Julian Turner]

In a nutshell, the list style does what "modifying the numbering
formatting via the top-level style" (seehttp://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html) did in
previous versions, that is, it ensures (or tries to ensure) that you access
the same list template, as you modify the multilevel (outline) numbering in
a document.

However, the list style does not replace attaching numbering levels to
paragraph styles, and the best way to *apply* numbering is still via
paragraph styles.

Thank you for your answer Stefan.

I think I will stick to classic multi-level lists with linked
Paragraph Styles, and not use ListStyles until I fully understand the
additional implications they have.

I have been playing around List Styles, and their use of ListTemplates
is both interesting and confusing when you start linking with
Paragraph Styles.

For instance, in Word 2002, once you have linked a Paragraph Style to
a ListTemplate used by a List Style, and you actually apply the
Paragraph Style to a paragraph in the list, you cannot subsequently
unlink the Paragraph Style and the List Template. As if the binding
between the List Style and the Paragraph Style gets fixed in something
like the following priority:-

P > Paragraph Style > List Style > ListTemplate

And yet if you apply a Paragraph Style first, then a List Style, and
then modify the Paragraph Style to point to a different List Style,
the original List Style takes precedence.

So if you apply another different List Style to the paragraphs in the
list, they retain their original Paragraph Styles, but the Outline
numbering gets overidden by the new List Style.

And when you try to link the same Paragraph Style to different List
Templates used by different List Styles, a tug of war begins as to
which List Style / List Template is to prevail, with all sorts of
strange results.

I don't think Microsoft (for all their billions) have thought through
ListStyles completely; or more likely, I don't fully understand the
programming hurdles they faced.

Regards

Julian

 

[Stefan Blom]

Thank you for your answer Stefan.

I think I will stick to classic multi-level lists with linked
Paragraph Styles, and not use ListStyles until I fully understand the
additional implications they have.

I have been playing around List Styles, and their use of ListTemplates
is both interesting and confusing when you start linking with
Paragraph Styles.

For instance, in Word 2002, once you have linked a Paragraph Style to
a ListTemplate used by a List Style, and you actually apply the
Paragraph Style to a paragraph in the list, you cannot subsequently
unlink the Paragraph Style and the List Template. As if the binding
between the List Style and the Paragraph Style gets fixed in something
like the following priority:-

P > Paragraph Style > List Style > ListTemplate

In Word 2007, at least, you can do this in order to modify the list style
and remove any of the linked paragraph styles: At Home tab | Multilevel
List, right-click the list style (found under "List Styles"), and choose
Modify from the context menu. Word displays the Modify Style dialog box.
Click Format, and then click Numbering to display the multilevel list dialog
box. If necessary, click the More button. For "Link level to style," choose
the "(no style)" option. Click OK to confirm the settings.

And yet if you apply a Paragraph Style first, then a List Style, and
then modify the Paragraph Style to point to a different List Style,
the original List Style takes precedence.

So if you apply another different List Style to the paragraphs in the
list, they retain their original Paragraph Styles, but the Outline
numbering gets overidden by the new List Style.

And when you try to link the same Paragraph Style to different List
Templates used by different List Styles, a tug of war begins as to
which List Style / List Template is to prevail, with all sorts of
strange results.

Word 2007 is a bit more stable in this respect compared to Word 2002/2003,
and, as you've probably noticed, you can no longer access the dialog box
previously known as the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box via the
Modify Style dialog box for a paragraph style.

~~
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

 

[Julian Turner]

[snip]

In Word 2007, at least, you can do this in order to modify the list style
and remove any of the linked paragraph styles: At Home tab | Multilevel
List, right-click the list style (found under "List Styles"), and choose
Modify from the context menu. Word displays the Modify Style dialog box.
Click Format, and then click Numbering to display the multilevel list dialog
box. If necessary, click the More button. For "Link level to style," choose
the "(no style)" option. Click OK to confirm the settings.

[snip]

I will try that. In word 2003, once a Paragraph Style had been
deployed, I found that amending the Numbering from a List Style would
not let me alter to "(no style)" - it would revert to the Para Style
originally set. I had to change to a different ListTemplate entirely.

[snip]

Word 2007 is a bit more stable in this respect compared to Word 2002/2003,
and, as you've probably noticed, you can no longer access the dialog box
previously known as the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box via the
Modify Style dialog box for a paragraph style.

[snip]

Yes, I did notice that. It is back to their point that modifying a
ListTemplate creates a new ListTemplate (i.e. ListTemplates are
immutable). There is no modify option from the general list dialogue
accessed from the Home ribbon, just a "create new" option (Modify is
only available for a ListTemplate attached to a List Style).

So if you are not using List Styles, and you want to modify a
ListTemplate that is already linked to Paragraph Styles, I am not sure
of the best way to do it now, to ensure that your your Paragraph
Styles and the new ListTemplate get properly hooked up? Having said
that, when would I want to do this anyway? I am going to play
further.

Regards

Julian

 

[Stefan Blom]

[snip]

Word 2007 is a bit more stable in this respect compared to Word
2002/2003,
and, as you've probably noticed, you can no longer access the dialog box
previously known as the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box via
the
Modify Style dialog box for a paragraph style.

[snip]

Yes, I did notice that. It is back to their point that modifying a
ListTemplate creates a new ListTemplate (i.e. ListTemplates are
immutable). There is no modify option from the general list dialogue
accessed from the Home ribbon, just a "create new" option (Modify is
only available for a ListTemplate attached to a List Style).

So if you are not using List Styles, and you want to modify a
ListTemplate that is already linked to Paragraph Styles, I am not sure
of the best way to do it now, to ensure that your your Paragraph
Styles and the new ListTemplate get properly hooked up? Having said
that, when would I want to do this anyway? I am going to play
further.

To edit a multilevel list that is not part of a list style, place the
insertion point in the first top-level paragraph (for example, in the first
Heading 1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). Then click Home tab |
Multilevel List | Define New Multilevel List.

 

[Julian Turner]

[snip]
Word 2007 is a bit more stable in this respect compared to Word
2002/2003,
and, as you've probably noticed, you can no longer access the dialog box
previously known as the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box via
the
Modify Style dialog box for a paragraph style. [snip]

Yes, I did notice that.  It is back to their point that modifying a
ListTemplate creates a new ListTemplate (i.e. ListTemplates are
immutable).  There is no modify option from the general list dialogue
accessed from the Home ribbon, just a "create new" option (Modify is
only available for a ListTemplate attached to a List Style).

So if you are not using List Styles, and you want to modify a
ListTemplate that is already linked to Paragraph Styles, I am not sure
of the best way to do it now, to ensure that your your Paragraph
Styles and the new ListTemplate get properly hooked up? Having said
that, when would I want to do this anyway?  I am going to play
further.

To edit a multilevel list that is not part of a list style, place the
insertion point in the first top-level paragraph (for example, in the first
Heading 1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). Then click Home tab |
Multilevel List | Define New Multilevel List.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Stefan, that's jogged my memory.

I remember now seeing that somewhere before (either a post on this
list, or Shauna Kelly, or the MVP site), but not really following it
up.

Best Regards

Julian

 

[Stefan Blom]

You are welcome.

FWIW, you've probably seen the instructions in the newsgroups. Numbering in
Word 2007 doesn't seem to be that well-documented yet.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

[snip]
Word 2007 is a bit more stable in this respect compared to Word
2002/2003,
and, as you've probably noticed, you can no longer access the dialog
box
previously known as the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box via
the
Modify Style dialog box for a paragraph style. [snip]

Yes, I did notice that. It is back to their point that modifying a
ListTemplate creates a new ListTemplate (i.e. ListTemplates are
immutable). There is no modify option from the general list dialogue
accessed from the Home ribbon, just a "create new" option (Modify is
only available for a ListTemplate attached to a List Style).

So if you are not using List Styles, and you want to modify a
ListTemplate that is already linked to Paragraph Styles, I am not sure
of the best way to do it now, to ensure that your your Paragraph
Styles and the new ListTemplate get properly hooked up? Having said
that, when would I want to do this anyway? I am going to play
further.

To edit a multilevel list that is not part of a list style, place the
insertion point in the first top-level paragraph (for example, in the
first
Heading 1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). Then click Home tab |
Multilevel List | Define New Multilevel List.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Stefan, that's jogged my memory.

I remember now seeing that somewhere before (either a post on this
list, or Shauna Kelly, or the MVP site), but not really following it
up.

Best Regards

Julian