Not happy with "The staff are happy" OR "The staff is happy"

[Bill Davy]

In fact, the grammar checker seems to have green twiddlyitis with the
following:



The staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "staff is" but see
below)

Staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "Staff is" or "Staffs
are"

Staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs").

The staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs" but see above).

A staff is happy. "A staff" has twiddles (suggests "Staffs")



Is it fixable? How?



Word 2003 SP2.

 

[Terry Farrell]

Bill

Not fixable. It is still present in W2007 too.

Staff (and crowd) are collective nouns, so 'the staff is' and 'the crowd is'
are both correct. The grammar checker happily accepts 'is or are' with
crowd - but with staff, the checker accepts neither as correct.

Both the handling of crowd and staff are inconsistent and daft.

 

[Stefan Blom]

Word 2000 seems to handle it correctly, though.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP


in message

 

[Bill Davy]

That's progress for you, then :-(
Bill

Word 2000 seems to handle it correctly, though.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP


in message

 

[Bill Davy]

OK, I'll log it to MS. Hey ho.

Bill

Not fixable. It is still present in W2007 too.

Staff (and crowd) are collective nouns, so 'the staff is' and 'the crowd
is' are both correct. The grammar checker happily accepts 'is or are' with
crowd - but with staff, the checker accepts neither as correct.

Both the handling of crowd and staff are inconsistent and daft.

 

[Robert]

Hi,

According to my sources, "staff" behaves differently in US and UK English.

In US English, when "staff" is the subject of a verb, it is normally
followed by singular verbs only. But plural pronouns can be used:

The staff is currently on vacation. They will be back next Monday.

In UK English, "staff" is normally followed by plural verbs:

The staff in this company are very young.

In US English, "staff" can only be singular:

They have a staff of a hundred working night shifts (but not "A hundred
staff").

In UK English, "staff" can be both singular and plural:

They have a staff of a hundred working night shifts.

but also

They have a hundred staff working night shifts.

In both US and UK English, "staff" can be used in the plural to refer to
more than one such group:

The senators and their staffs.

Obviously, the Word 2007 grammar checker knows nothing about all this.

Hope this helps.

Robert

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

How does UK English handle the use of "staff" to mean a walking stick or a
musical staff, either of which is decidedly singular?

 

[PeterMcC]

Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote in

How does UK English handle the use of "staff" to mean a walking stick
or a musical staff, either of which is decidedly singular?

<snip>

Staffs or staves.

Incidentally, staves are also the strips of wood that are used as the walls
of barrels - or they are in the UK anyway - and there is a singular,
"stave".

 

[Terry Farrell]

It becomes clearer why the Grammar checker finds it difficult to be correct.
I normally use it even though it has many false positives, because it does
catch true positives on occasions.

Terry Farrell

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I wasn't asking about the plural but about whether the grammar checker
allows singular verbs.

 

[Robert]

The original posting referred to "staff" as a (happy) group of people. This
is the meaning where grammatical use might be different. In this particular
sense, "staff" belongs to the so-called "group" or "collective" nouns.

Michael Swan (Practical English Usage, OUP) gives the following examples of
"group nouns":

bank
the BBC
choir
class
club
committee
England (the football team)
family
firm
government
jury
minister
orchestra
party
public
school
staff
team
union

In US English, singular verbs are normally used with the above words
(senses), with the exception of "family" which can be followed by a plural
verb.

In UK English, both singular and plural verbs can actually be used,
depending on whether the group is considered as a group of individuals or
as an impersonal entity.

Michael Swan gives the following examples of use:

My firm are wonderful. They do all they can to help me.
My firm was founded in the 18th century.

All other senses of "staff" do not belong to the set of "collective nouns"
and grammatically behave in the same way in both US and UK English.

Note that "staff" meaning "a set of five lines on which music is written"
might be treated differently in US and UK English. Sources disagree on the
use of "staff/staffs" for a set of musical lines: some say such use belongs
exclusively to (modern) US English (UK English using "stave/staves"); other
sources say that "staff/staffs", "stave/staves" are used indifferently in
both US and UK English; and other sources still say that both can be used,
but that UK English has a preference for "stave/staves", US English for
"staff/staffs". Take your pick!

It is clear that no automatic grammar checker could ever make appropriate
suggestions regarding such murky areas...

 

[PeterMcC]

Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote in

I wasn't asking about the plural but about whether the grammar checker
allows singular verbs.

Sorry - my mistake.

Please ignore my post.

 

[Mari Broman Olsen]

Here's what I see on Word 2007

Staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
The staff are happy. [Correctly flagged]
The staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
A staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]

What's the issue?

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

The issue is that "The staff are happy" is not incorrect in UK (and some US)
usage.

Here's what I see on Word 2007

Staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
The staff are happy. [Correctly flagged]
The staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
A staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]

What's the issue?

In fact, the grammar checker seems to have green twiddlyitis with the
following:



The staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "staff is" but see
below)

Staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "Staff is" or "Staffs
are"

Staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs").

The staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs" but see above).

A staff is happy. "A staff" has twiddles (suggests "Staffs")



Is it fixable? How?



Word 2003 SP2.

 

[Mike G]

I copied and pasted your examples into my copy of w07 and got the same
results as you.

Here's what I see on Word 2007

Staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
The staff are happy. [Correctly flagged]
The staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
A staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]

What's the issue?

In fact, the grammar checker seems to have green twiddlyitis with the
following:



The staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "staff is" but
see
below)

Staff are happy. "staff are" have twiddles (suggests "Staff is" or
"Staffs
are"

Staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs").

The staff is happy. "Staff" has twiddles (suggests "staffs" but see
above).

A staff is happy. "A staff" has twiddles (suggests "Staffs")



Is it fixable? How?



Word 2003 SP2.

 

[Terry Farrell]

In English UK Word 2007, all those examples are flagged. The transition from
English US to English UK is not correct for either UK or US!"

Terry Farrell

 

[Terry Farrell]

Robert

All reminiscent of the great 'coke is, coke are' debate!

Terry

 

[Tom Willett]

The staff *am* happy ;-)

Tom

| In English UK Word 2007, all those examples are flagged. The transition
from
| English US to English UK is not correct for either UK or US!"
|
| Terry Farrell
|
| message | > Here's what I see on Word 2007
| >
| > Staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
| > The staff are happy. [Correctly flagged]
| > The staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
| > A staff is happy. [Correctly not flagged]
| >
| > What's the issue?
| >
| > "Bill Davy" wrote:
|

 

[Dr Teeth]

Not fixable. It is still present in W2007 too.

Slightly OT:- 'viz' is listed as an error, the correction being 'viz.'
This is wrong. The 'z' in those abbreviations ending in it is an
old-fashioned full stop and is not part if the abbreviation itself
which is 'vi', for example.

Cheers,

Guy

** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
** out of someone who richly deserves it.

 

[Terry Farrell]

When I try to use 'viz' without the stop (which is correct), I get a
spelling error and a right-click gets me the suggestion 'wiz'.

Terry