Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute

[Simon Wigzell]

I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to layour
some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables adding more and
more rows and columns and merging cells to get the desired layout. Then she
gets to a point where she can't go any further - inserting more rows and
columns just upsets what she already has. She asked me to fix it and I
played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I could start again from scratch
but might end up in the same place.

I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of text
with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole thing
would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to her.

Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout a
complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to let me
go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to play with her
tables for hours.

Thanks!

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Absolute Positioning is not well supported in all browsers/versions.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Jens Peter Karlsen[FP-MVP]]

The only drawback is that some very old browsers wont understand it
IE3/NS3 and earlier. Under .5% uses these anymore so it should be pretty
safe to use.

Regards Jens Peter Karlsen. Microsoft MVP - Frontpage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Wigzell [mailto:[email protected]]
Posted At: 21. juli 2004 17:57
Posted To: microsoft.public.frontpage.client
Conversation: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute
Subject: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute


I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to
layour some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables
adding more and more rows and columns and merging cells to get the
desired layout. Then she gets to a point where she can't go any further
- inserting more rows and columns just upsets what she already has. She
asked me to fix it and I played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I
could start again from scratch but might end up in the same place.

I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of
text with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole
thing would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to
her.

Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout
a complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to
let me go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to
play with her tables for hours.

Thanks!

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

NS4 has problems.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Not just version 3 browsers
Also Version 4 (NN) and most Macs
Plus if not done correctly (divs for all positioning and external style sheets or embedded styles instead of inline styles, cross
browser/platform checked), even some level 5+ browser will not render it correctly
- adding inline styles to images is not a good way to do it




| The only drawback is that some very old browsers wont understand it
| IE3/NS3 and earlier. Under .5% uses these anymore so it should be pretty
| safe to use.
|
| Regards Jens Peter Karlsen. Microsoft MVP - Frontpage.
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Simon Wigzell [mailto:[email protected]]
| Posted At: 21. juli 2004 17:57
| Posted To: microsoft.public.frontpage.client
| Conversation: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute
| Subject: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute
|
|
| I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to
| layour some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables
| adding more and more rows and columns and merging cells to get the
| desired layout. Then she gets to a point where she can't go any further
| - inserting more rows and columns just upsets what she already has. She
| asked me to fix it and I played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I
| could start again from scratch but might end up in the same place.
|
| I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
| left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of
| text with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole
| thing would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to
| her.
|
| Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout
| a complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to
| let me go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to
| play with her tables for hours.
|
| Thanks!
|
|

 

[Jon Spivey]

That's been a myth on these newsgroup for years - probably time to lay it to
rest. Could you point to a specific piece of correctly coded absolute
positioning that will "have problems" in NN4?


--
Cheers,
Jon
Microsoft MVP - FP

NS4 has problems.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

The only drawback is that some very old browsers wont understand it
IE3/NS3 and earlier. Under .5% uses these anymore so it should be pretty
safe to use.

Regards Jens Peter Karlsen. Microsoft MVP - Frontpage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Wigzell [mailto:[email protected]]
Posted At: 21. juli 2004 17:57
Posted To: microsoft.public.frontpage.client
Conversation: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute
Subject: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute


I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to
layour some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables
adding more and more rows and columns and merging cells to get the
desired layout. Then she gets to a point where she can't go any further
- inserting more rows and columns just upsets what she already has. She
asked me to fix it and I played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I
could start again from scratch but might end up in the same place.

I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of
text with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole
thing would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to
her.

Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout
a complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to
let me go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to
play with her tables for hours.

Thanks!

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

What is a specific piece of correctly coded absolute positioning that will work in NS4?

What is a specific piece of non-correctly coded absolute positioning that will not work in NS4?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

That's been a myth on these newsgroup for years - probably time to lay it to
rest. Could you point to a specific piece of correctly coded absolute
positioning that will "have problems" in NN4?


--
Cheers,
Jon
Microsoft MVP - FP

NS4 has problems.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

The only drawback is that some very old browsers wont understand it
IE3/NS3 and earlier. Under .5% uses these anymore so it should be pretty
safe to use.

Regards Jens Peter Karlsen. Microsoft MVP - Frontpage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Wigzell [mailto:[email protected]]
Posted At: 21. juli 2004 17:57
Posted To: microsoft.public.frontpage.client
Conversation: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute
Subject: Page Layout - tables vs position:absolute


I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to
layour some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables
adding more and more rows and columns and merging cells to get the
desired layout. Then she gets to a point where she can't go any further
- inserting more rows and columns just upsets what she already has. She
asked me to fix it and I played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I
could start again from scratch but might end up in the same place.

I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of
text with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole
thing would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to
her.

Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout
a complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to
let me go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to
play with her tables for hours.

Thanks!

 

[Simon Wigzell]

I have a client who is basically a graphic designer who uses FP to layour
some very attractive but complex web pages. She uses tables adding more and
more rows and columns and merging cells to get the desired layout. Then she
gets to a point where she can't go any further - inserting more rows and
columns just upsets what she already has. She asked me to fix it and I
played with it for an hour and got nowhere. I could start again from scratch
but might end up in the same place.

I know I could fix it by just adding style="position:absolute; top:XXX;
left:XXX;" to all the images and puttingm divs around each section of text
with the same style="position:absolute;..........." and the whole thing
would work great. She is reluctant to do this beacuse it is new to her.

Are there any drawbacks to using style="position:absolute..... to layout a
complex page instead of convoluted tables? I need to convince her to let me
go with this method rather than find someone else who wants to play with her
tables for hours.

Thanks!

Thanks for all the responses. All I want to do is put every form image and
block of text inside a div thus:

<div style="position:absolute; top:###; left:###; z-index:#;">
----stuff---
</div>

Is a simple use like this not going to work in all modern V4 or greater IE
and NN and anything modern on Mac???

How the heck do you lay out a complex page then? Tables get ridiculous if
your vertical and horizonal boundaries don't line up. A table is simply the
wrong structure to layout a page beyond a certain level of complexity. Not
to mention that FP always inserts new rows/columns above or left, when that
isn't always what you want and then you have to move everything you've
already done up or left a row - I can't believe there isn't a proper
solution for laying out a page without all that table nightmare. Not to
mention making a change to such a table layout in the future.

Please advise, if not tables and not absolute position then what?

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Simon,

You really only have the two choices, tables or CSS.

Which one to use really depends on what developer feels most comfortable working with, and which
takes the least amount of time to implement, if time is a factor.

Tables are supported in all graphical browsers, so this is my preference for my projects.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Ronx]

My own experience of absolute positioning shows that if you are targeting
Windows or Linux OS, version 4 browsers[1] or later, there will be no
problems, EXCEPT :

You must use an external style sheet - NN4 gets upset with inline styles

Avoid position: relative - NS6.2, Mozilla 1.6, Galleon, and Konquerer2.8,
and earlier have issues with this, but NN4 and IE are fine.

Ignore Opera 4,5,6 - those browsers are pigs.


Test your layout to see how changing the font size affects it - users will
change the font size.
Also check in NN4 with JavaScript disabled.
Screen dumps I have seen for Safari (Mac) show that it supports AP pretty
well, but I have seen (from the logs) that some IE5.2 (Mac) users switch to
Safari when viewing my site - I don't know if it's script, AP or something
else, never had any feedback from these users.

I prefer to work in tables, they present no problems in any browser

[1] Internet Explorer: I have only checked IE5.5 and later.


Ron