War Between Access and SQL Server

[David W. Fenton]

....at least, that's how the twitter item worded it.

Danny Lesandrini wrote a nice article:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Rocks for Developers
http://tinyurl.com/yjs6kfw =>
http://www.databasejournal.com/features/msaccess/article.php/3862011/
article.htm

....which got this foolish response:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Doesn't Rock
http://tinyurl.com/ye48zln =>
http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/02/top-10-reasons-why-access-st
ill-doesnt-rock/

I've posted a bunch of responses taking issue with the whole
article, which completely misses the point that Danny was writing
about Access, not about Jet/ACE. But they are subject to moderation
so may not be posted (you know how diplomatic I am). I've saved all
of them, so if they don't get posted there, I'll post them on my own
blog, or perhaps here.

This kind of thing just disturbs me. These people mouth off and
clearly do not understand the most basic facts about what they are
talking about. The amount of self-contradiction in that Brent Ozar
screed is shocking to me.

On the other hand, it certainly isn't anything new, so I guess I
shouldn't be surprised.

 

[giannis xatzis]

...at least, that's how the twitter item worded it.

Danny Lesandrini wrote a nice article:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Rocks for Developers
http://tinyurl.com/yjs6kfw =>
http://www.databasejournal.com/features/msaccess/article.php/3862011/
article.htm

...which got this foolish response:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Doesn't Rock
http://tinyurl.com/ye48zln =>
http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/02/top-10-reasons-why-access-st
ill-doesnt-rock/

I've posted a bunch of responses taking issue with the whole
article, which completely misses the point that Danny was writing
about Access, not about Jet/ACE. But they are subject to moderation
so may not be posted (you know how diplomatic I am). I've saved all
of them, so if they don't get posted there, I'll post them on my own
blog, or perhaps here.

This kind of thing just disturbs me. These people mouth off and
clearly do not understand the most basic facts about what they are
talking about. The amount of self-contradiction in that Brent Ozar
screed is shocking to me.

On the other hand, it certainly isn't anything new, so I guess I
shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Daniel Pineault]

There is a place for both tools!

It's like comparing an SUV to a Hummer and stating the Hummer is the best.
It depends on what you wish to do, what are your needs.

As you say, and as many MVPs have stated, most people (including many
supposed experts) do not make the difference between MS Access and Jet. As
such, many false statements are continuously made regarding MS Access.

At the end of the day, it makes no difference anyways. Developers will
continue to use the tool(s) that they are confortable with and hopefully
which meet their clients current and future needs.

 

[Jeff Boyce]

Spot on! ... and it's more than just a familiar tool, as you point out ...
it's matching the tool to the task.

I'm fond of pointing out that, while it is possible to drive nails with a
chain saw, it isn't a particularly good idea... particularly while the saw
is running.

Regards

Jeff Boyce

 

[David W. Fenton]

=?Utf-8?B?RGFuaWVsIFBpbmVhdWx0?=

At the end of the day, it makes no difference anyways. Developers
will continue to use the tool(s) that they are confortable with
and hopefully which meet their clients current and future needs.

But as long as the Access bigots get to badmouth Access in their
ignorance, it means we professional Access developers are working
under a cloud of suspicion.

Now, I don't give a rat's ass what strangers think about me, but if
Access is seen as a bad development tool, it means I will lose jobs
or be paid less. And all because of misinformation and ignorance
like that which is on full display in Brent Ozar's response to
Danny's article.

Brent responded to my posts today and shows that his reading
comprehension is pretty poor. He really doesn't have a leg to stand
on, though, and perhaps that's why he chose to retire from the
field.

 

[David Portas]

...at least, that's how the twitter item worded it.

Danny Lesandrini wrote a nice article:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Rocks for Developers
http://tinyurl.com/yjs6kfw =>
http://www.databasejournal.com/features/msaccess/article.php/3862011/
article.htm

...which got this foolish response:

Top 10 Reasons Why Access Still Doesn't Rock
http://tinyurl.com/ye48zln =>
http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/02/top-10-reasons-why-access-st
ill-doesnt-rock/

I've posted a bunch of responses taking issue with the whole
article, which completely misses the point that Danny was writing
about Access, not about Jet/ACE. But they are subject to moderation
so may not be posted (you know how diplomatic I am). I've saved all
of them, so if they don't get posted there, I'll post them on my own
blog, or perhaps here.

This kind of thing just disturbs me. These people mouth off and
clearly do not understand the most basic facts about what they are
talking about. The amount of self-contradiction in that Brent Ozar
screed is shocking to me.

On the other hand, it certainly isn't anything new, so I guess I
shouldn't be surprised.

Access's worst enemies are its legion of ignorant and untrained developers.
Of course this is not a criticism of the product, but it doesn't do its
industry reputation any good at all. Those people are a major reason why
lots of IT departments won't take Access seriously as a developer tool.

Notwithstanding your comments about the critic's confusion over Jet/ACE vs
Access, there are still plenty of Access users who don't know the difference
between an application development tool, a protocol for file-sharing and a
DBMS. I had a tedious discussion some time ago with a person rated as an
Access guru on one well-known forum website. He insisted that Access was a
"database". Even a "relational" one. I quickly gave up. How do you deal with
ignorance like that? (Not a rhetorical question by the way. I'd like to know
how...

 

[BrentO]

But as long as the Access bigots get to badmouth Access in their
ignorance, it means we professional Access developers are working
under a cloud of suspicion.

I would agree with that.

Now, I don't give a rat's ass what strangers think about me, but if
Access is seen as a bad development tool, it means I will lose jobs
or be paid less. And all because of misinformation and ignorance
like that which is on full display in Brent Ozar's response to
Danny's article.

If you're really worried about making less money, why aren't you
switching to SQL Server? Or are you taking the platform a little too
personally?

Brent responded to my posts today and shows that his reading
comprehension is pretty poor. He really doesn't have a leg to stand
on, though, and perhaps that's why he chose to retire from the
field.

HAHAHA, wow, nice try. I would suggest that our discussion has less
to do with my reading comprehension and more to do with your writing
performance - notice that the comments have stood on my side, not
yours. Or would you accuse the other commenters of having bad reading
comprehension too?

And where'd you get that I've retired from the field? I still do work
in the field every week, if not every day.

Brent

 

[David W. Fenton]

:

I would agree with that.

But you're causing that cloud and you think that's OK, despite the
shocking dishonesty and inconsistency you've displayed in the
discussion. You didn't enter the discussion in good faith (you
didn't even comprehend what Danny's article was about), and you've
maintained a dismissive tone throughout.

You aren't interested in debate. You're only interested in slamming
Access, and for reasons that are intellectually incoherent for the
most part.

If you're really worried about making less money, why aren't you
switching to SQL Server? Or are you taking the platform a little
too personally?

If people like you would act fairly instead of lying about Access,
this wouldn't necessarily be an issue.

As to "switching to SQL Server" there's no switch to be made -- I'm
already using it with some of my clients (as well as MySQL, BTW).
This is yet another point that you seem to be unwilling to
acknowledge, that Access developers have nothing against SQL Server
-- they use it all the time.

HAHAHA, wow, nice try. I would suggest that our discussion has
less to do with my reading comprehension and more to do with your
writing performance - notice that the comments have stood on my
side, not yours.

Likely because your site's main audience is people who are Access
bigots like yourself.

Or would you accuse the other commenters of having bad reading
comprehension too?

And where'd you get that I've retired from the field? I still do
work in the field every week, if not every day.

At the time I wrote the post to which you are replying, you had said
this:

I won’t refute your points blow-by-blow

I took that to mean you weren't responding any further. I didn't
know you'd be replying to other posts, but not to my main one. I
find it odd that you'd reply around the edges while refusing to
address the main argument.

But given the pattern you've established, I guess it's not so
surprising.

Now, go away, please.

 

[David W. Fenton]

Access's worst enemies are its legion of ignorant and untrained
developers.

Access's reputation is a victim of its own success, yes.

Of course this is not a criticism of the product,

Indeed it's not, but Ozar doesn't make that distinction in anything
that he's written on this subject so far as I've seen.

but it doesn't do its
industry reputation any good at all. Those people are a major
reason why lots of IT departments won't take Access seriously as a
developer tool.

Those people who don't take Access seriously are ignorant. This is
not my fault -- it's their own.

Notwithstanding your comments about the critic's confusion over
Jet/ACE vs Access, there are still plenty of Access users who
don't know the difference between an application development tool,
a protocol for file-sharing and a DBMS.

I've seen quite a few people using SQL Server and other "real
databases" who don't have a clue, either. Sturgeon's Law applies
everywhere, and non-Access people are not immune to it.

I had a tedious discussion some time ago with a person rated as an
Access guru on one well-known forum website. He insisted that
Access was a "database". Even a "relational" one. I quickly gave
up. How do you deal with ignorance like that? (Not a rhetorical
question by the way. I'd like to know how...

Again, 90% of everything is crap. That half the people in any field
are below average doesn't mean nobody excels, or that the entire
field can be dismissed on the basis of the failures of the many.

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

...which got this foolish response:

Clearly this response is lacking the P in MVP.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

Access's worst enemies are its legion of ignorant and untrained developers.
Of course this is not a criticism of the product, but it doesn't do its
industry reputation any good at all. Those people are a major reason why
lots of IT departments won't take Access seriously as a developer tool.

Sure they are ignorant and untrained. But at least they're not using
Excel for data. Their field types might not be perfect. I've come
across a few text fields which should've been true date/time fields.

I made a rude comment about Danielle Steele to my friend the
librarian. His reply was that yes but maybe they or their children
will start reading something better. And at least they're not
watching TV.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/