Access is just to hard to understand

  • Thread starter Tom via AccessMonster.com
  • Start date
P

PC Datasheet

Randy,

You are the child!! You just can not accept that you are wrong. Evidence the
fact that you must resort to name calling and inuendos to try and make your
point. I never said my services are worth $10 per hour or that I charge $10
per hour. What I said is that my fees are reasonable and not $100 per hour.

Some recent projects include:
o Material Estimating Database for a large supplier of building materials
to home building
contractors of thirty one home plans with an average of twelve models in
each plan. My fee $2400.
o Database for scheduling training classes for doctors through janitors
in a conglomerate of eight hospitals. My Fee $2200.
o Database for recording and reporting patient screenings in a national
vision screening program. The database records about fifty parameters in
each patient screening and reports these in a multitude of ways. Reports
include imported charts of the data. My fee $3000.
o Database for managing a school district's basic skills instruction
program for underperforming
students. 12 schools. My fee $1800.
o Database for tracking employee attendance at training classes for a
large chemical manufacturer. Employees enter their attendance via a web
browser on the company's intranet. Managers approve employee training and
manage training documents via a web browser. Admin manages the system via an
Access front end. My fee $2800.
o Project that integrated an Access database with Palm Pilots. An Access
database runs on an office computer and data entry screens on the Palm
Pilots. Technicians take the Palm Pilots into the field, enter data and then
return to the office and download the data into the database. The database
then reports on the data. My fee $3400.

I have also done a lot of work in the $350 to $1000 range.

Much of the work I have done has been proprietary or custom tailored to the
specific customer so I
really have no off-the-shelf applications that I can plug into a project.
However, from some of the
projects I have created generic modules that I can implement into new
projects. These include:
o Month Scheduling Calendar Module
o Week Scheduling Calendar Module
o Appointments Scheduling Module
o Reservation Module for something like convention exhibit tables or
theater seats
o Room Reservation Module for something like hotel/motel rooms

I stay busy by charging reasonable fees. Do you stay busy???
 
L

Larry Linson

"PC Datasheet" wrote
$4000 ????? Cheap by any standard????
My fee would have been substantially less
than that no matter what the database was
required to do!!!

Over a 5-year period, Steve, I put in at least two thousand hours working on
nothing more than corrections and enhancements to one database, and others
put in similar amounts of work on it. Are you really so arrogant that you'd
claim you could have done the whole thing for less than $4,000, is your
experience so limited that you can't imagine a complex or extensive
database, or is it just that someone slipped some hallucinogens in your Jolt
Cola?
 
T

Tom Lake

Over a 5-year period, Steve, I put in at least two thousand hours working
on nothing more than corrections and enhancements to one database, and
others put in similar amounts of work on it. Are you really so arrogant
that you'd claim you could have done the whole thing for less than $4,000,
is your experience so limited that you can't imagine a complex or
extensive database, or is it just that someone slipped some hallucinogens
in your Jolt Cola?

I've been writing software for people for about 35 years, using BASIC, dBase
II, III, IV and 5,
Access 1.0 through 2003 and have never charged anyone more than $1500.00 for
my product no
matter how many hours I spent. Sometimes it works out to < $10/hr.
sometimes $100/hr.
Lest you say that the programs I've written were trivial, I have received
numerous letters from
clients thanking me for my work and telling me that my programs gave them
information in ways
that other consultants (some of whom would have charged them $3000 - $5000)
told them
was not possible. Yes, I do reuse a lot of code from one job to the next
when I can. Do you
rewrite every function from scratch for every job? The people for whom I
write the software can't
afford much and are grateful for my assistance. While I'm far from rich, I
make a good living doing
what I do. If I know a client can't afford $4000, I'll do the job for less
NO MATTER HOW
COMPLEX. Why are you so defensive?

Tom Lake
 
B

Baz

Tom via AccessMonster.com said:
Im sitting here in front of my computer, Ive been here all day. Next to me is
about $200 worth of Access books, and a stack of Access information I printed
off the internet. ive just finished a community college class on Access, I
got an "A", (what a joke). Here I sit, and I still cant make one database.
This has got to be one of the most frustrating things Ive ever attempted. Im
not sure if I going to just give up tring to learn Access or not. After all
the time and effort I have put in I hate the thought of just quiting. I guess
all I can do is write this post. I feel like Im right on the verge of
understanding, but how long do I wait for that.

Just had to get it out...

Tom


It isn't specifically Access that's hard, it's the whole business of
programming and database design. Believe me, if you tried, say, SQL Server
and VB.Net, you would see that Access is in fact relatively easy!

I used to teach courses in programming, databases and so forth. There were
no entry requirements, anyone who paid up and turned up got to take the
course. I taught classes of 20 on 30-hour courses, and I had a rule of
thumb that in every group of 20, there would be 2 students who would find it
ridiculously easy and would finish the course in less than half the time,
there would be 2 students who would NEVER finish the course, no matter how
hard they tried, and the remainder would get there in the available time
with varying levels of struggle.

It isn't Access' fault that grasping the concepts of database design and
programming demands a certain aptitude. If this were not the case, then
doing it professionally wouldn't be so (relatively) well-paid.
Unfortunately, the fact that Access is part of Microsoft Office leads a lot
of people to think that using it in a basic way should be as easy as the
basics of Word or Excel (any Access professional will have seen many
examples of terrible one-table databases because someone though that Access
was just Excel with knobs on!).

If you are determined to grasp it, I would echo the advice given by some
others: forget about Access for the time being, and try to get to grips with
relational database design. Otherwise, you will be like a mechanic who
knows how to use a wrench but hasn't a clue how an engine works.
 
R

Rick Brandt

To all of the other comments I would just add... Try to do similar stuff in some
other tool.

I've been "dabbling" with Visual Studio using C# and WinForms and it is
excrutiating to accomplish even the most trivial of data retrieval stuff that we
take for granted in Access. Even trying my hardest to see myself as I was when
I first started out in Access I can confidently say that it was nothing compared
to this.

We are also (as a company) trying to switch to Java based web development. Here
again, the amount of "stuff" one has to do just to display a grid of data (read
only, never mind doing updates) is mind boggling to me. I don't know how
projects ever get completed using these tools.

Off-Topic aside... Anyone know of a book specifically geared for transitioning
to WinForms and dot net? I don't mean a conversion how-to or anything like
that. Just a reference that would explain "When you did this in Access this is
what you would do in dot-net" sort of thing. With dot net being a more general
purpose development platform I have trouble finding good information on
"database related" stuff.
 
K

Keith

Larry Linson said:
"PC Datasheet" wrote

Are you really so arrogant that you'd claim you could have done the whole
thing for less than $4,000, is your experience so limited that you can't
imagine a complex or extensive database

I think we all know deep-down that it's just another advertising scam, sadly
gone wrong yet again. Name-calling in a public forum never won anyone any
clients.
 
P

PC Datasheet

You don't make any sense at all, Larry!!!

You didn't work two thousand hours for $4000. What I'm saying is that for a
job which you charge $4000, I could have done it for much less. I don't rip
off customers. And I see that I'm not alone - read Mr. Lake's response to
your dribble. Perhaps you all are afraid of the competition. And for
experience, let's not forget you approached me some time ago looking for
work.

--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
(e-mail address removed)
www.pcdatasheet.com
 
L

Larry Linson

You must be a good-hearted fellow, Tom (or is it really Donnie?). There's
only so many hours that most of us can afford to spend on a project for a
given amount of money. I'm glad that you are in a position such that you
can.

I doubt PC Datasheet is in that position, however; I know I am not.

Larry Linson
 
L

Larry Linson

You don't make any sense at all, Larry!!!

You didn't work two thousand hours for
$4000. What I'm saying is that for a
job which you charge $4000, I could have
done it for much less.

It is certainly possible that you charge less than I do -- you know what
your time is worth. Whether you could have done the job I did, regardless of
price, is not a given.
I don't rip off customers. And I see that
I'm not alone - read Mr. Lake's response to
your dribble. Perhaps you all are afraid
of the competition.

Mr. Lake appears to be a philanthropist -- whatever the job, he said, if the
customer couldn't afford $4,000, he'd do it for less.
And for experience, let's not forget you
approached me some time ago looking for
work.

My memory, or yours, must be worse than anyone realized because I certainly
don't remember "approaching you looking for work", ever. I don't remember
ever offering you any work, either.

You have now just about convinced me that you need to check whatever you are
ingesting because someone may have added some hallucinogens to it.
 
L

Larry Linson

Off-Topic aside... Anyone know of a book
specifically geared for transitioning to
WinForms and dot net? I don't mean a
conversion how-to or anything like that.
Just a reference that would explain "When
you did this in Access this is what you
would do in dot-net" sort of thing. With
dot net being a more general purpose
development platform I have trouble
finding good information on
"database related" stuff.

I am not aware of any that purport to teach Dot Net to someone with Access
experience. I have seen some advertised that purport to do that for people
experienced in classic Visual Basic and C++.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
 
L

Larry Linson

I don't rip off customers.

I'd be awfully cautious about hiring someone who's demonstrated that he
cannot understand or is not willing to follow the rules of USENET
newsgroups.
 
B

Baz

PC Datasheet said:
You don't make any sense at all, Larry!!!

You didn't work two thousand hours for $4000. What I'm saying is that for a
job which you charge $4000, I could have done it for much less. I don't rip
off customers. And I see that I'm not alone - read Mr. Lake's response to
your dribble. Perhaps you all are afraid of the competition. And for
experience, let's not forget you approached me some time ago looking for
work.

--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
(e-mail address removed)
www.pcdatasheet.com

But you said earlier in the thread:

"$4000 ????? Cheap by any standard????
My fee would have been substantially less than that no matter what the
database was required to do!!!"

Now, given that the poster to whom you were replying gave no clues as to
what the database does, or how many hours his developer expended, or his
developer's rate, the implication is that regardless of how many hours the
job took, you WOULD do it for $4,000 or less.

It's not for me to comment on your commercial practices, I'm merely pointing
out the inconsistency in your own statements.
 
H

Harold via AccessMonster.com

Tom said:
Im sitting here in front of my computer, Ive been here all day. Next to me is
about $200 worth of Access books, and a stack of Access information I printed
off the internet. ive just finished a community college class on Access, I
got an "A", (what a joke). Here I sit, and I still cant make one database.
This has got to be one of the most frustrating things Ive ever attempted. Im
not sure if I going to just give up tring to learn Access or not. After all
the time and effort I have put in I hate the thought of just quiting. I guess
all I can do is write this post. I feel like Im right on the verge of
understanding, but how long do I wait for that.

Just had to get it out...

Tom
I had no idea I would get such a responce. Thank you to all who wrote. I was
writing at a very low moment in my Access learning curve. I feel much better
knowing Im not alone in the struggle. Im also working through my problems
with Access with all of the help Im recieving from you all. Thanks again.

Tom
 
P

PC Datasheet

Larry,

You are just covering up. Around two years ago you sent me an email saying
you could not find any work and you asked if I had any projects you could
do.

As an aside, you probably could not find any work because of your exorbitant
fees. Mr. Lake does not seem to have any trouble finding projects to do.

And put that in your coffee and drink it.

Steve
PC Datasheet
 
B

Baz

Harold via AccessMonster.com said:
I had no idea I would get such a responce. Thank you to all who wrote. I was
writing at a very low moment in my Access learning curve. I feel much better
knowing Im not alone in the struggle. Im also working through my problems
with Access with all of the help Im recieving from you all. Thanks again.

Tom


Heheheh, you sound like a man in therapy, Tom!
 
P

PC Datasheet

Conservatively assuming the developer billed at $50 per hour, he billed
eighty hours and his fee was $4000. Say he billed at $25 per hour, he billed
160 hours and his fee was $4000. So in all likelihood the developer spent
between 80 and 160 hours on the project. I have worked on many of those
kinds of projects (and presumably Mr. Lake has too) and I have not charged
$4000.

So why don't you just mind your own business and not make unsubstantiated
statements.

Steve
PC Datasheet
 

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