ASP.NET

L

Linda W.

I have just discovered ASP.NET and after spending one whole day on it, I'm
trying to figure why MS offers it. I hate to sound so uninformed but just
who exactly is the target audience for this: programmers, designers,
software developers?

I downloaded the Web Matrix Project and have been playing with it. I found
the Toolbox and some information about "Object Oriented Programming" but
that's all. I have heard about (but know nothing about) Visual Studio and
how difficult it is to use. Ditto for The Web MAtrix Project. It won't even
fit totally on my 17" monitor (almost). I spent another hour this morning at
the asp.net site and just wandered around aimlessly.

Where does ASP.NET fit in with FrontPage? Can the two be combined so that
one compliments the other?

Sign me,

Very, very confused
 
L

Linda W.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. I thought I had somehow poked my nose where I
shouldn't have. Do you know where I can find some info on ASP.Net, then?
 
J

Jim Cheshire

Hi Linda,

ASP.NET is a technology that allows Web site developers (and in this sense,
we're talking about Web programmers) to create applications that use a Web
browser for the front-end interface. You will see many places where ASP.NET
is described as a technology that allows you to create Web sites that access
databases. That's only a very small part of the technology, and it is a
complete misnomer to call ASP.NET a database technology. Database access is
only one of an almost infinite number of uses for ASP.NET.

For example, on my church's Web site, we offer online access to the church
roster. Naturally, we don't want member names and addresses available to
the general public, so I use ASP.NET to implement a username and password
login to the site. There is quite a bit of programming logic that is
involved in doing that because when you log in, it also determines what
"role" you belong in. The interface of the site changes depending upon who
you are. For example, if you are an Administrator, you have links that will
let you edit information on users, etc. All of that is done with ASP.NET.

In a more generic sense, ASP.NET is simply programming code that runs on a
Web server and is executed by a request from a user using a Web browser.
What that ASP.NET code can do once that request is made is almost endless!
You can build an application like eBay or Amazon, or you can build a simple
photo gallery for your family members.

ASP.NET and FrontPage 2003 are very well integrated, but not completely just
yet. FrontPage 2003 recognizes ASP.NET pages (.aspx pages.) It also
recognizes ASP.NET "server controls" which are compartmentalized controls
that provide some specific functionality. For example, when you create a
Database Results page in FrontPage and choose ASP.NET as your technology,
FrontPage uses an ASP.NET DataGrid control to display the data. You can
then control many different properties of that grid so that it displays just
the way you want. All of that is done with ASP.NET.

ASP.NET is a huge technology, and the number of things that people are doing
with it is enormous! I work with ASP.NET developers every day, and I never
cease to be amazed at what people are doing with the technology. However,
if you have no programming experience, diving in to the waters of ASP.NET
might be quite a plunge! A good book on beginning ASP.NET might be a good
investment.

Hope that helps.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 
B

Bob Lehmann

It will fit just fine on a 17" monitor if you increase your resolution.

Bob Lehmann
 
L

Linda W.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for a great overview of ASP.NET. Can you recommend a book to help me
get started with ASP then? I am starting to get questions from customers
about "interactive databases".
I have no programming background which, I guess,
makes entry difficult. I have been using FP for about 3 years and am pretty
good with it.
 
J

Jim Cheshire

You might find Wrox's Beginning ASP.NET a good choice.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 
J

Jim Buyens

The target market for ASP.NET is programmers. But
Microsoft believes that in the near future, the balance
of tasks in Web development will shift to programming. In
essence, they believe the days of the .htm file are
numbered.

If you look at today's most popular Web sites, you can
sense the mechanical precision and underlying databases.
e-Commerce sites like Amazon and e-Bay are clearly front-
ends to databases. Sites like CNN, MSNBC, and ESPN are
clearly pulling stories and pictures from content
management databases and plugging them into programmed
templates. Sites like these *don't* have office buildings
full of people hand-crafting Web pages.

Fat-client distributed applications are dead or dying.
Almost no one writes business systems as Windows
applications anymore. For ease of deployment, for e-
Commerce, and for many other reasons, organizations want
their business systems to be Web-based.

ASP was a great technology but its not up to the task of
developing these large systems. It's a hodgepodge of
scripting languages, ActiveX controls, and code
interspersed with HTML. It's enough to drive a real
programmer screaming from the room.

So, with the rise in Web programming and the weakness of
ASP for large applications, Microsoft invented ASP.NET.
And I must tell you, professional programmers who
previously wrote ASP or VB Windows apps have stampeded
toward ASP.NET.

So, what's a Web designer to do? In large organizations,
Web designers and Web programmers will probably remain
separate groups. The designers will do the page layouts
and the programmers will do the databases and program
code. Over time, there will probably be fewer designers,
more programmers, and more content developers, but how
that plays with ever-increasing volumes remains to be
seen.

For private consultants and small shops, the picture is
less clear. I suspect most small clients would balk at
the expense of custom programming, and would therefore be
willing to accept off-the shelf solutions even if the fit
isn't perfect. So perhaps custom programming is less
important in that segment.

I believe that eventually, though, ASP.NET will become
pervasive, if for no other reason than Microsoft dropping
support for ASP (which Microsoft has announced they will
do, but not anytime soon.)

Right now, Visual Studio is a great tool for programming
but it's very weak for Web design. Contrarily, Web design
tools like FrontPage are weak for ASP.NET coding. It
would help a lot if these tools moved closer together.

As to learning resources, I usually recommend my book Web
Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition, even
though it's a couple of years old now.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
C

chris leeds

sounds like IPraySpy. :)

Jim Cheshire said:
Hi Linda,

ASP.NET is a technology that allows Web site developers (and in this sense,
we're talking about Web programmers) to create applications that use a Web
browser for the front-end interface. You will see many places where ASP.NET
is described as a technology that allows you to create Web sites that access
databases. That's only a very small part of the technology, and it is a
complete misnomer to call ASP.NET a database technology. Database access is
only one of an almost infinite number of uses for ASP.NET.

For example, on my church's Web site, we offer online access to the church
roster. Naturally, we don't want member names and addresses available to
the general public, so I use ASP.NET to implement a username and password
login to the site. There is quite a bit of programming logic that is
involved in doing that because when you log in, it also determines what
"role" you belong in. The interface of the site changes depending upon who
you are. For example, if you are an Administrator, you have links that will
let you edit information on users, etc. All of that is done with ASP.NET.

In a more generic sense, ASP.NET is simply programming code that runs on a
Web server and is executed by a request from a user using a Web browser.
What that ASP.NET code can do once that request is made is almost endless!
You can build an application like eBay or Amazon, or you can build a simple
photo gallery for your family members.

ASP.NET and FrontPage 2003 are very well integrated, but not completely just
yet. FrontPage 2003 recognizes ASP.NET pages (.aspx pages.) It also
recognizes ASP.NET "server controls" which are compartmentalized controls
that provide some specific functionality. For example, when you create a
Database Results page in FrontPage and choose ASP.NET as your technology,
FrontPage uses an ASP.NET DataGrid control to display the data. You can
then control many different properties of that grid so that it displays just
the way you want. All of that is done with ASP.NET.

ASP.NET is a huge technology, and the number of things that people are doing
with it is enormous! I work with ASP.NET developers every day, and I never
cease to be amazed at what people are doing with the technology. However,
if you have no programming experience, diving in to the waters of ASP.NET
might be quite a plunge! A good book on beginning ASP.NET might be a good
investment.

Hope that helps.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.



morning
 
L

Linda W.

Thank you Jim,

Sounds like the future may be dim for non-programmers of Webs, then. Is your
book a good starting point for someone like me? I said that I didn't have a
programming background. Would I be struggling just to get through it or am I
the target market? I thought Running FP 2000 was a terrific book and I
learned a lot from it at the time.

My clients and their sites are small, locally based companies, but they do
want & need interactivity with their customer base. For me, do you think the
old ASP might work as well as the new ASP.NET, as a starting point at least?
 
J

Jon Spivey

Hi Linda,
if you're starting from scratch I'd go with ASP. ASP.net is certainly a lot
better - kind of like a ferrari compared to a bmw - but "classic" asp will
be around for a good while yet and can probably do what you (or your
clients) need. If and when you do outgrow asp what you've learnt will be a
good starting point with asp.net.

There's a stack of websites to help you with ASP and a database wizard in FP
itself. If you go straight to asp.net you're going to have a heck of a
learning curve before you get anything useful done.

Jon
Microsoft MVP - FP
 
L

Linda W.

Hi Jon,

Thanks. Is there one book then on what you call classic asp where I can at
least gain a toehold? Can you think of one book that stands out from the
rest?
 
T

Tom Gahagan

Hi Linda....

I think the advice to start on asp is pretty good especially in light of you
being new to programming. There are lots of good resources online for
learning asp. Take a look at.....

www.asp101.com for starters.

You can also do a google on asp and find other sources.

Another great place for learning asp is what I think is one of the best asp
forums around.....

www.4guysfromrolla.com

For asp resources you can also check out....

www.aspin.com

you might do a search on tutorials or something like that and finds lots
of stuff to look at.

For lots of example programs to study.... (when you get to that point... and
It won't be as long as you think!!! ) check out....

www.planet-source-code.com

Best to you......
Tom Gahagan
eThomaston.com
 
L

Linda W.

Hi Tom,

The resources you guys are providing are great for a newbie, so I thank you
all. However, for my way of learning anything new I really need first a book
that I can take wherever I go-work, home, etc. I looked around and found
some but before I invest the time and effort to learn I would really hope to
hear from people that have already done this. In addition to Jim Buyens
book, I have found, "Beginning ASP Databases", "Beginning ASP.NET Databases
Using VB.NET". As I'm sure you know there are many, many others so I'm
hoping someone will make a recommendation. Thanks.
 
J

Jon

When I learnt ASP I started with Beginning ASP 3.0 by Wrox. You can read a
description of it on one of my sites
http://www.bookhead.co.uk/showbook.aspx?isbn=0764543636
There haven't been any new ASP books written for some time now, all the new
stuff is .net.

There's also a partner book Professional ASP 3.0 but I think if you're
starting out best to go for beginning the pro book assumes some programming
experience - programming your VCR doesnt count :)

Jon
Microsoft MVP - FP
 
L

Linda W.

I found that one, Beginning ASP Datbases also by Wrox and Sams Teach
Yourself Active Server Pages 3.0 in 21 Days by Scott Mitchell? Any
preference?
 
J

Jon

Hi Linda,
I'd go for beginning asp - it served me well. ASP Databses is focused just
on databases, so it wont give you the general info that you need. Having
said that you won't go wrong with anything written by Scott Mitchell - he's
the guy that runs www.4guysfromrolla.com which is probably the best
asp/asp.net site.

Jon
 
L

Linda W.

Thanks Jon. I just ordered the Mitchell book. The reviews on it are
outstanding. I will keep Beginning ASP for future reference if I
find gaps in the Mitchell book because of my background-- which as I said is
zero.
 
J

Jim Buyens

As a rule, I never recommend anyone start using ASP any more. It's a
dead horse, or a legacy platform, or a relic from the past; pick your
favorite.

At the same time, I admit that ASP.NET is harder to get started with.
It's just BIG, and tools specifically oriented to Web designers aren't
there yet. But it's powerful, and complete, and you won't grow out of
it as you will ASP.

But in the end, this is a decision only you can make.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
J

Jim Cheshire

tools specifically oriented to Web designers aren't
there yet.

I think the Web Forms designer team at Microsoft would probably disagree
here. While VS.NET does fall short of FrontPage in the area of table
editing and in some other areas, for the most part, the VS.NET designer is
pretty darned good. Whidbey is a HUGE step forward in this area and will
likely dwarf FrontPage in producing good HTML code.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 

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