Before posting read this please!

[Niklas Östergren]

There might be the way you discribe it here but what´s your point, accept
that everyone shall try to solve there problem before posting a Q here?

Who deside if I have tryed hard enough? Isn´t i just for everyone else just
to skip my Q if they don´t think that I have realy tryed hard enough?

I agree with you that some Q look´s as if they have been posted just a
little bit to easy. Just because the forum exist! But what´s easy for you
are most sertanly not easy for me. And whats easy for me may not be easy for
someone else.

Don´t you learn form answer´s you get here? I do! So even if I havn´t tryed
(what you may think) hard ennought I still read through the code or what
ever I can to learn more. But sometimes I may need to get into the right
direction. Not nessecary getting a complete solution. And sometimes I don´t
get it to work even if I have got some good hint´s. I need a complete
solution and THEN I can read more and understand what´s going on!

Why do I answere this post? Well simply because I think there might be
people out here that may not post any Q because the are affraide that you, I
or someone else who knows more about Access or VBA thena dem, think that
they havn´t tryed hard enough. And you can be sure about that it´s not the
right people that stop posting because of this, unfortunately!

// Niklas

 

[Marin Kostov]

Hello!
I am relatively new to this newsgroups here. But during my experience, I
have noticed several things:
1. Most of the users are thinking they are ready to use such thing as
Access, Excel and so on. They consider themselves "powerusers" just because
they can type words, add to numbers, and create a field in the DB. And they
a trying to complete tasks and solve problems, which are far beyond their
knowledge, expertise and so on.
2. Most of the questions, posted here, can be answered just by hitting the
F1 key. 90% of the answers are one click away - in the Help System. Should I
give some examples? I think not. Just I will mention: one person is not
aware how to produce a combination of FirstName and LastName in a textbox.
The answer is in the Help - how to create calculated text box.
One girl is wondering why after she has selected some text in Word the whole
page prints, not the selection. If she has "Asked" Links about Print, she
could read the following:
"Note You can also select the portion of the document you want to print.
Click Print on the File menu, and then click Selection."
Just before posting and wasting someone's time to answer beginners question,
please try to solve the problem alone. Or buy a good book. Everyone could
recommend couple of really good ones.
Yes, the community here is to help people solve everyday tasks. But it is
just not serious to ask something like: Why is the printer not printing, why
do I get a message, telling me that the floppy disk is write-protected,
where can I have Word for free, or why my picture refuses to move.
Just thing about that: Will you post most of your questions if the answers
were NOT FREE? In that case, would you try to make some effort and do it by
yourself?
If the question is difficult, post it and you will get the right answer.
But... No one can teach you how to print a document or create a query,
unless you try it alone.

Here are couple sentences from a great book:
"Information for Database Users
If you’re already a database user, chances are you’re ready to jump right in
and
start using Access. A word of warning: This is not your father’s database.
You may be
an expert in relational database management software, such as dBASE, FoxPro,
or
Paradox, but you may never have used a database under Windows.
You should be familiar with Windows software before you jump into a database
package. Play with Windows Paint and experiment with Word or Excel. Learn
how
to use the mouse to click, double-click, select, drag, and drop. Create a
graph in
Excel, use a Wizard, and try the Help system. Knowing how to perform these
tasks
will make your learning experience much faster with Access."

 

[Arvin Meyer]

Hello!
I am relatively new to this newsgroups here. But during my experience, I
have noticed several things:

Hi Marin,

Actually there's no question too trivial. Some folks just get stuck on
things that may seem obvious to many others. The help files, especially to
the uninitiated are difficult to use. We've (the MVPs in all Office
products) have been complaining to Microsoft for years and they are getting
a bit better.

I've been a consultant, teacher, and developer for a long time and try not
to judge by questions asked. Those that post here very often just need a
nudge in the right direction to take off and fly.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

 

[flupp]

Marin,

Arvin is right, and besides... Had you spent the time answering some of
these obvious questions, Marin, then you'd have made some people happy.
Whilst now you have made many more just ..... ehm ... more frustrated...

No hard feelings, and as many kind regards to you, Marin, as I wish every
frustrated Access user

flupp

Oh, and by the way, Access is a good tool (just to close with another good
feeling)

 

[ChrisM]

Marin,

Don't you think that is a rather arrogant attitude?

Just because you find some of the questions trivial doesn't mean they should
not be asked.

Ok granted sometimes people ask things that can be easily answered by the
On-Line help, or in a book, but sometimes it's not so easy to know where to
start looking. Sometimes I've asked a question in NGs and kicked myself when
someone has answered it because it was so obvious, but was maybe just
looking along the wrong tracks for the correct solution (by the way, I am a
VB developer, and consider myself to be reasonably proficient in Access and
Excel. That doesn't stop me asking the odd 'dumb' question from time to
time)

No-one is wasting anyones time by asking 'beginners questions'. They will
only get answered by people who WANT to answer them. Sometimes, I find it
quite enjoyable to pick out a few simple questions and give some assistance
to people who are trying to learn/are having difficulties.
I might not always give them a direct answer, maybe I'll say somthing like
'Look at 'calculated text boxes' in the on-line help' or 'You should find
the
answer to your question in the options on the Print dialog' ie give them a
little nudge so they can look it up for themself.

Please remember, not everyone has your level of skills/knowledge. Everyone
has to start somewhere...

Regards,

Chris Mayers.

 

[Marin Kostov]

Yes, I agree, that when someone read the Q and A here, can learn. I learn
too. The knowledge is power, and more you know, more power you have.
The point here is... the simple questions. Is it really SO DIFFICULT to take
a look at some options and choose what apply for the current problem? What
is the better way of learning? The trial and the mistake. When your query is
not working well, try to figure out how it is working. Why it is working
that way. Not everyone should be an expert in order to work with Access,
Excel, Word... but everyone should rely first on himself. Not to be so lazy
to ask someone for help. I have a problem, I know there is newsgroup with
nice and kind people who will answer any question. I post, and then I wait.
The question gets its answer in one or two days. OK, I am satisfied. But...
tomorrow will another problem occur. I am posting again...
If I take a good book, if I try to solve my problem, next time I will not
waste my time to post, to wait for the answer...
Of course this is for the basic questions. For the difficult ones their is
the Community

 

[Fred Boer]

Hello Marin:

If I might just add to the other comments... I have been using these
newsgroups for several years now(!), and when I began I was just the type of
user you describe, and I asked all sorts of basic, "dumb" questions. The
fact that kind people here have patiently answered questions is what makes
these newsgroups so special. But, yes, there are a lot of questions like
that here...

A big part of the problem for beginners is that they might not have a clue
about how to even begin to describe their information needs. Taking your
example of the "calculated control". To you, and to any developer, it would
seem obvious that you could use a "calculated control" to combine FirstName
and LastName fields. But as a beginner, I'd never even consider looking for
help with those terms since you obviously can't do "calculations" with
people's names!

Besides, helping beginners can be fun; they are usually so gushingly
thankful!

Cheers!
Fred Boer

P.S. I remember when someone told me how to use a query to set the order of
a combobox - I could've kissed their feet! (Thankfully, newsgroups only
allow "virtual" contact!)

 

[Kevin3NF]

Fred,

As I was reading this post, I thought of you when you first came around
looking for the very simple items. Man oh man have gone beyond that....

--
Kevin Hill
President
3NF Consulting

www.3nf-inc.com/NewsGroups.htm
www.DallasDBAs.com/forum - new DB forum for Dallas/Ft. Worth area DBAs.

 

[Fred Boer]

You can remember that far back?

Fred

 

[Marin Kostov]

Wow, this is a really good discussion
And that was the point of my post.
No, I do not thing this is some arrogant attitude. I just thing this is a
good point to start for everyone who has his first touch with the computers,
software and so on.
Yes, I answer with great pleasure to everyone's question (if the question is
not answered before of course). I have trained lots of people, who have
never interacted with computers before. I know, that they are afraid. I
know, that sometimes the obvious thing for a long-year-user might be very,
very difficult for the beginner. But, you have to agree with me, unless
someone "get his hands dirty", he will never get the knowledge and the
skills needed.
The primary intention of my post was to make people *thing*, not just *wait*
for the solution. When you find the answer alone, it will have more value
than if you have it from the others.
When I started my preparation for the Access XP Certification exam, I used 4
sources (please do not consider this as an Ad):
Microsoft Office XP Inside Out Book
Microsoft Access Inside Out Book and the sample database
Access 2002 Bible and the sample database
Northwind database.
I tried to get in the problem, to have a basic understanding of the
concepts, the theory and etc.
When people read books, look at the samples, and try to realize how they
work, this will help them solve most of the problems that arise.
I know some people need just a little "push" to go to the right direction.
And will continue to help them, if my knowledge allows it. We are here to
help each other.
So, please excuse me if I have offended someone. That was involuntarily.

 

[ChrisM]

Yea, I'm enjoying this discussion too. Better than writing code anyway!

Hope you weren't offended by being accused of being arrogant! ;-)

I think we are about 99% in agreement here.

Of course, people should at least have a go at answering their own
questions, and I believe the amount that they can do on their own is
probably pretty much proportional to their level of general computer
knowledge:
That is, someone who is computer literate will probably have a much better
idea how to go about solving a problem in <say> Access (or at least where to
start looking) than someone who is more of a computer beginner even if they
both new to <say> Access.

I quite agree that someone who expects other people to solve every problem
without even giving it any thought himself is going to benefit far less if
at all, from the advice than someone who has taken the time to fully
understand and research the problem, still been unable to work it out, and
then asked for help.
There are also those who literally expect someone to provide some
code/examples thay can paste into their work without even understanding what
they are doing, and I quite agree that they are going to learn pretty
little, not only that, but it's dangerous too!

All I would repeat, and I hope you agree, is that:
Some people ask simple questions because they just don't know how to start
looking. As they get more experienced, they should be able to rely less and
less on others and start fighting for themselves. What appears a simple
question to some may be a real brain-buster to a beginner.

Also, and I must confess to being occasionally guilty of this, if I'm in a
hurry, I will bang a question onto the newsgroup in the hope that someone
will get back to me in less time than it would take me to do the work
my-self. However if I do this, and work the answer out before I get a reply,
I will normally try to answer my own posts to try and help others with the
same questions.

Cheers ,

ChrisM ;-)

 

[jamieuk]

Master Instructor
Huh?

Hello!
I am relatively new to this newsgroups here.

Ah, a Newbie. Figures.

Most of the users are ...
trying to complete tasks and solve problems, which are far beyond their
knowledge, expertise and so on.

It's called learning without an instructor.

One girl is wondering why ...

What's the significance of using 'girl', beyond being derogatory?

Here are couple sentences from a great book:
"Information for Database Users
If you're already a database user, chances are you're ready to jump right in
and start using Access...

I'd suggest your book is a little dated to be quoted from. More like,
'If you're already a database user, chances are you'll find using MS
Access much less capable than modern relational database management
software such as SQL Server or Oracle you may be accustomed to...'

--

 

[ChrisM]

Oooh, nasty, Meow! ;-)

Actually, although his first post does sound a little high-handed, if you
read what he is actually saying, he does make some good points.

Cheers,
ChrisM

 

[anthony]

Right right when I was ready to post and you asked for this thread to be closed? No way!:

While I do think Marin has a point that people should read the help section before they post, but not everyone who uses Access has his/her skill set in computers. That is why Microsoft created Access, so the normal, everyday person can use it. The questions that seem trivial to some of us who have to deal with Access everyday or to those of us who carry around our body weight worth of computer books around, but we forget why Access was created. The chances are, those people are secretaries, sales people, doctors, or other professionals who just have one question they want to ask. Forget the books and the F1 button, they don't even know how to phrase their questions right, let alone finding the answers on their own. Plus, if these occassional users actually buy tons of books on Access or any other computer products, and find their answers, what good are we then, those of us who do this for a living? At the rate that the IT jobs are being outsourced to India, those of us in the US might some day write our posts in India, if everyone can easily find their own answers.:

Just my 2 cents, may you all have a wonderful day in Access land.

 

[Marin Kostov]

Master Instructor

Huh?

I would say: Hello.
Just for the record:
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/officespecialist/instructor/default.asp

But... Let's make END of this Post.

 

[Hugh]

Fortunately ?? we haven't the ability to read peoples' minds and don't know if their questions are the result of laziness, stupidity, inexperience, a sincere desire to learn, or whatever

There have been many mentions of using the Access help system to find answers. I personally find the access help sytem far more frustrating and dificult to understand than Access itself. For instance, if you are in a form design screen and want to know how to use the "Max" function how do you find it. In Access97 I could find just about anything by going to help, then index, and typing the term I was interested in. The so called index to Access2002 help seems to contain about 1% of what it should. Many times I inadverdantly stumble accross the info I am seeking but there seems to be no sytematic way to find things. And having 2 distinct help systems (one for access and another for VBA) is less than "help"ful. Overall it seems to me that as Access has been improved the help system has worsened considerably, and thus more and more supposedly "easy" questions on forums like this. Sorry for the rant.

 

[Tony Toews]

If I might just add to the other comments... I have been using these
newsgroups for several years now(!), and when I began I was just the type of
user you describe, and I asked all sorts of basic, "dumb" questions.

And this is what makes groups.google.com so useful. A question has
been asked many times in each persons own terminology. The question
has been answered in the target technologies terminology.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

 

[Tony Toews]

I am relatively new to this newsgroups here. But during my experience, I
have noticed several things:
1. Most of the users are thinking they are ready to use such thing as
Access, Excel and so on. They consider themselves "powerusers" just because
they can type words, add to numbers, and create a field in the DB. And they
a trying to complete tasks and solve problems, which are far beyond their
knowledge, expertise and so on.

That's what we're here for. To help folks get over whatever
particular hurdle they are encountering. And to also state "By the
way you also want to consider ...."

2. Most of the questions, posted here, can be answered just by hitting the
F1 key. 90% of the answers are one click away - in the Help System.

No they're not.

1) Terminology. Folks know what they want to do but don't know what
to call it in Access, Excel, whatever.

2) Since A2000 office help has been lacking. A lot.

Just before posting and wasting someone's time to answer beginners question,
please try to solve the problem alone. Or buy a good book. Everyone could
recommend couple of really good ones.

Wasting someone's time? Hey, that's what we're here for. To help.

Define "good book" What works for one person won't work for another.
What about different skill levels.

Finally if you find you are answering the same question a lot then
see: Newsgroup Answers MDB - I designed the MDB to assist frequent
newsgroup answerers, such as MVPs, in quickly locating and pasting in
their favourite snippets of answers.
http://www.granite.ab.ca/access/newsgroupanswersmdb.htm

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

 

[Max Moor]

That's what we're here for. To help folks get over whatever
particular hurdle they are encountering. And to also state "By the
way you also want to consider ...."

1) Terminology. Folks know what they want to do but don't know what
to call it in Access, Excel, whatever.

2) Since A2000 office help has been lacking. A lot.

Define "good book" What works for one person won't work for another.
What about different skill levels.

Just a quick note to say "Bravo, Tony." I understand how folks
can be frustrated by seeing the same old simple questions posted over
and over. Having worked in a customer support role, years ago, I know
their pain. However...

I quickly learned that the help systems aren't perfect, or even
adequate, in some ways. One example? I use the answer wizard a lot.
If you want info on the Name Statement, you have to type in "Name
Statement." If you just type in "Name," you'd never know it was in
there. It makes me wonder at their search engine.

Books. I am fortunate to have been able to collect about 20
different books on programming various versions of Access. I have books
from Que, MS Press, O'Reiley, etc. I am constantly amazed at the
differences in content between any two different books claiming titles
like "Bible." Even if you find a good book, full of great info, it can
be a tough reference source without a good index.

Finally, I must say I do consider myself a "power user." I never
punched paper tape, but have been working with PCs since the first
versions of DOS. I have my MSEE, and have been designing hardware and
software for embedded systems for 15 years.

That all said, I have asked some SERIOUSLY stupid questions in
these groups. I frustrate myself with how easy it can be to get so
focussed on my own assumptions, that the real solution to a problem, no
matter how simple, can be completely invisible to me.

I am infinately appreciative of the MVPs, and their willingness as
a group, to be patient with me and all the other Access newbies. I have
made amazing strides in my abilities as a developer, hoping that it will
become a new vocation for me. Maybe I'll be an MVP myself one day.
I'll tell you, though, without the support of these groups, I'd have
been buried long ago.

- Max

 

[anthony]

Heck, bravo on both Max and Tony.