M
Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)
Lex
You don't read too well, eh.. maybe the medications can help with that too..
You don't read too well, eh.. maybe the medications can help with that too..
M
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
rotfl
--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.
After furious head scratching, Bob I asked:
| YAWN
|
| Lex wrote:
|
| << excess ranting snipped >>
--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.
After furious head scratching, Bob I asked:
| YAWN
|
| Lex wrote:
|
| << excess ranting snipped >>
M
Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)
.... another 'would be' friend lost.. :-(
--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
"Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]"
--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
"Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]"
H
Harlan Grove
JoAnn Paules [MSFT MVP] wrote...
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Last time I tried phone support was in the early 1990s for VM/386, and
it was free. However, that's ancient history.
E-mail support or web-based support is another matter. I've received
free e-mail support from MathSoft for MathCAD, Scooter Software for
Beyond Compate and Helios Software for TextPad. And while neither
Wolfram Software nor MKS provide free support for Mathematica or the
MKS Toolkit, respectively, they both offer annual support contracts
that cost about the same as Office upgrades that provide full phone and
e-mail support as well as automatic upgrades during the support
contract period, and those upgrades come with *complete* hardcopy
manual sets. Microsoft's TechNet is a lot more expensive and doesn't
seem to provide as much.
In any case, your statement is basically untrue for companies producing
shareware, and most organizations providing open source software have
free online bug reporting sites.
....
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Last time I tried phone support was in the early 1990s for VM/386, and
it was free. However, that's ancient history.
E-mail support or web-based support is another matter. I've received
free e-mail support from MathSoft for MathCAD, Scooter Software for
Beyond Compate and Helios Software for TextPad. And while neither
Wolfram Software nor MKS provide free support for Mathematica or the
MKS Toolkit, respectively, they both offer annual support contracts
that cost about the same as Office upgrades that provide full phone and
e-mail support as well as automatic upgrades during the support
contract period, and those upgrades come with *complete* hardcopy
manual sets. Microsoft's TechNet is a lot more expensive and doesn't
seem to provide as much.
In any case, your statement is basically untrue for companies producing
shareware, and most organizations providing open source software have
free online bug reporting sites.
B
Bob Buckland ?:-\)
Hi Lex,
'Free support' can depend a bit on your definition
MS does provide self-support websites for products
http://support.microsoft.com/select/?target=hub including,
for example, one for Office 2003
http://support.microsoft.com/off2003
and links to help through the Help menus of the programs
as well as the Microsoft Knowledge Base and the MS hosted
newsgroups (where you may find MS support folks visiting,
but not guaranteed <g>). The MS support web site was listed
with at least one award for support excellence for 2005
http://www.asponline.com/awards.html
While those are not the same perhaps as one-on-one telephone
support, they are resources that do contain quite a bit of
often helpful information and are not inexpensive to try to keep up
to date to be useful resources
If you have a retail (non-OEM) copy of MS Office then support for resolving setup failures isn't charged [at least in the U.S.]. If
you do call on an
a non-setup issue and it is determined that it is an error within the MS Office program then even though you may have used a
chargeable incident then the charge should be reversed. (In both cases you'd probably need to give the credit card info to access,
but they do cancel it on a case by case basis). One thing though, that can be the grey area for some is when an a 'problem' is
from an 'as designed/intended' result (i.e. an expectation of how a feature might work) vs 'crashed', or if it turns out that the
'crash' is from an interfering 3rd party product, for example. In those cases it's probably a charged call.
Searching the MS Knowledge base (http://support.microsoft.com) or asking here, for example can be ways to help prevent incurring
some charges for phone in support.
If you have an OEM copy (intended for sale with a new computer) the computer suppliers have agreed or in some cases basically asked
for, the ability to be the first line of contact for anything to do with problems happening on their boxes, including MS Office, so
with OEM copies you are supposed to get support from the PC supplier. The quality of that support can vary and isn't something MS
has direct 'control' over. If you're calling for support of an OEM copy then generally it's a charged call, but if it's a bug in
the Office program then that too might be waived.
It's not easy to give a firm answer on when they will/won't charge, but my experience has been that MS doesn't charge when the issue
is one they recognize as a bug.
================
All you have said is that basically it will cost them money, and that because
the problems aren't their fault. >>
--
Let us know if this helped you,
Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP
*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*
For Everyday MS Office tips to "use right away" -
http://microsoft.com/events/series/administrativetipsandtricks.mspx
'Free support' can depend a bit on your definition
MS does provide self-support websites for products
http://support.microsoft.com/select/?target=hub including,
for example, one for Office 2003
http://support.microsoft.com/off2003
and links to help through the Help menus of the programs
as well as the Microsoft Knowledge Base and the MS hosted
newsgroups (where you may find MS support folks visiting,
but not guaranteed <g>). The MS support web site was listed
with at least one award for support excellence for 2005
http://www.asponline.com/awards.html
While those are not the same perhaps as one-on-one telephone
support, they are resources that do contain quite a bit of
often helpful information and are not inexpensive to try to keep up
to date to be useful resources
If you have a retail (non-OEM) copy of MS Office then support for resolving setup failures isn't charged [at least in the U.S.]. If
you do call on an
a non-setup issue and it is determined that it is an error within the MS Office program then even though you may have used a
chargeable incident then the charge should be reversed. (In both cases you'd probably need to give the credit card info to access,
but they do cancel it on a case by case basis). One thing though, that can be the grey area for some is when an a 'problem' is
from an 'as designed/intended' result (i.e. an expectation of how a feature might work) vs 'crashed', or if it turns out that the
'crash' is from an interfering 3rd party product, for example. In those cases it's probably a charged call.
Searching the MS Knowledge base (http://support.microsoft.com) or asking here, for example can be ways to help prevent incurring
some charges for phone in support.
If you have an OEM copy (intended for sale with a new computer) the computer suppliers have agreed or in some cases basically asked
for, the ability to be the first line of contact for anything to do with problems happening on their boxes, including MS Office, so
with OEM copies you are supposed to get support from the PC supplier. The quality of that support can vary and isn't something MS
has direct 'control' over. If you're calling for support of an OEM copy then generally it's a charged call, but if it's a bug in
the Office program then that too might be waived.
It's not easy to give a firm answer on when they will/won't charge, but my experience has been that MS doesn't charge when the issue
is one they recognize as a bug.
================
All you have said is that basically it will cost them money, and that because
the problems aren't their fault. >>
--
Let us know if this helped you,
Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP
*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*
For Everyday MS Office tips to "use right away" -
http://microsoft.com/events/series/administrativetipsandtricks.mspx
A
Alison
Hello there is soo many problems with the microsoft word products, and even
if nothing is wrong, there is still confusion on how to do things because you
can do so much with them
Alison
if nothing is wrong, there is still confusion on how to do things because you
can do so much with them
Alison
A
Alison
Mike Hall (MS-MVP) said:
B
Bob I
Ah yes, the problems of giving the customer what they ask for. Perhaps
one should consider the necessity of what you use?
one should consider the necessity of what you use?
P
peej
As a business owner I feel the need to get my two-cents worth in here
somewhere . . .
I DO own a business!. I charge my clients a fee for my services. In the
event I perform the service incorrectly, I re-perform the service accurately
at no charge to the client. If I run into a situation where I cannot
correctly perform the service, I HONESTLY explain to the client my inability
to correctly perform that service and refund their money. SIMPLE AS THAT!
I continue to stumble along, in spite of the roadblocks MS keeps tossing
into my path, and I continue to take the hits for MS. I don't live in the
"Gates" fashion, but I can sleep at night and I have the respect of my
clients.
I feel there is a moral issue involved regarding "value for dollar." One
should not accept money for a service or product that is faulty. If you
accepted my money, then you have a responsibility to provide the product that
I purchased. If you are unable to do that, the least you can do is be honest
about your mistakes and help me solve YOUR problem without charge.
I will continue to operate my business the way I'm used to operating, and I
doubt that anything I say would prompt MS to gain any integrity. I find it
very difficult to comprehend that someone can live in high, high style
knowing full well that style was paid for by the "little people" whose only
request is to have what they paid for. However, as I said, I can sleep at
night.
NOT ALL BUSINESSES OPERATE IN THE MS STYLE.
--
peej
somewhere . . .
I DO own a business!. I charge my clients a fee for my services. In the
event I perform the service incorrectly, I re-perform the service accurately
at no charge to the client. If I run into a situation where I cannot
correctly perform the service, I HONESTLY explain to the client my inability
to correctly perform that service and refund their money. SIMPLE AS THAT!
I continue to stumble along, in spite of the roadblocks MS keeps tossing
into my path, and I continue to take the hits for MS. I don't live in the
"Gates" fashion, but I can sleep at night and I have the respect of my
clients.
I feel there is a moral issue involved regarding "value for dollar." One
should not accept money for a service or product that is faulty. If you
accepted my money, then you have a responsibility to provide the product that
I purchased. If you are unable to do that, the least you can do is be honest
about your mistakes and help me solve YOUR problem without charge.
I will continue to operate my business the way I'm used to operating, and I
doubt that anything I say would prompt MS to gain any integrity. I find it
very difficult to comprehend that someone can live in high, high style
knowing full well that style was paid for by the "little people" whose only
request is to have what they paid for. However, as I said, I can sleep at
night.
NOT ALL BUSINESSES OPERATE IN THE MS STYLE.
--
peej
Lex said:First of all, I already defined cliché for you already. This proves that you
are NOT reading my posts. Second of all, you still have not given a good
reason for Microsoft to NOT provide free customer support. Site me a list of
companies that do charge, because i have already sited two MAJOR ones that do
not charge, who are very quick in replying to queries. And as for
industry/economics. People are FORCED to use microsoft. Their only other
choice is Linux, which isn't compatible with the VAST majority of programs
average consumers need and want. And I STATED that Microsoft could charge if
you wanted somebody to tell you what to plug which cord into. I said that if
their is a glitch or something malfunctioning - whether it be Microsoft's
fault, the user's or a HACKER'S - they should offer free support. Look
around you. Your ISP will come out to your house if you are having trouble.
THEY DON'T EVEN CHARGE UNLESS YOU BROKE THE SYSTEM WHILE TINKERING WITH IT.
These employees answering the phone can also be cruising these forums,
monitoring progress on the latest Windows module, testing the newest SP, and
a vast number of other things. They do not have to sit their twiddling their
thumbs while waiting for a phone call. Tell me why MICROSOFT one of the
BIGGEST, WEALTHIEST, corporations in the WORLD can't do what Cox, Blizzard,
and Wizards of the Coast can? Give me a GOOD reason and STOP TELLING ME I AM
JUST PISSED OFF AND HAVEN'T TAKEN MY MEDICATION. BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE
SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD.
P.S. Microsoft isn't even fixing known problems anymore. People like
Doug Knox are. Why is this? BECAUSE MICROSOFT DOESN'T CARE. They know
they have the only system that is remotely feasible for people's daily lives.
You want your industry/economic lesson for the day? MICROSOF T HOLDS A
MONOPOLY!!!. Do you know what that means??? If not, go look it up. And if
you don't belive me, tell me why a court ordered it to sell off parts of
itself when it was sued for monopolising the market.
Mike Hall (MS-MVP) said:Lex
Which words did I misuse?.. e-mail me with the list..
Re. the rest of your diatribe relating to free support, I would suggest that
you read up on finance and economics in industry and commerce..
Packaging is what it is, and people who are careful don't have problems..
one is also free to repackage CD's in the event that the original packaging
is deemed to flawed in use..
The word of the day is CHOICE..
--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
Lex said:I hope you can get some glasses to read. I said Microsoft's PACKAGES are
poorly designed and are impossible to use without damaging the product
inside. I hope you can get on some meds Milly. It might clear up your
head.
Because the PROGRAMS - you know, lines of code in binary and hexadecimal
and
assembly etc... - are not purposefully built poorly. They simply can't be
programmed to handle every new product that another company releases.
THAT
is why MS should offer free customer support. But othern than making a
pitiful attempt at insulting me, you have not offered any counter to my
responses on my last post. If you don't have anything to say about why MS
should or should NOT give customer support, please do so. Otherwise you
are
just making yourself look bad like when Mike attempted to patronize me
with
an overwheliming vocabulary and misused some of them. He also didn't
answer
the rest of my last post other than to say, he agrees with you that I need
medicine.
Thanks for the support Bob.
:
Hope the Dr. will adjust your medications to help you avoid the obvious
belief that MIcrosoft is intentionally sabotaging your programs.
FYI, the most recent MS programs/software I have bought come in either a
paper CD case or a DVD/CD hard case. I don't recall the last time I
received ANYTHING from MSFT in a cardboard case.
--Â
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.
After furious head scratching, Lex asked:
| Are you paid by Microsoft? I don't think so. Do you still spend
| lots of time perusing these forums helping random people? Yes. I
| concede that many problems can be attributed to user error.
| Scratches on the install disk? MS: "Let's put the install disk in a
| stiff cardboard container so it is nearly impossible to remove the
| CD's without damaging them. Then we can charge them for damaged
| CD's." I buy lots of computer products. Only Microsoft sells CD's
| in cases that are guaraunteed to scratch the CD. Why do people
| like MS-MVP Doug Knox have to provide fixes for MS's problems? If he
| is paid for that, can he not answer emails as well? Where is their a
| tool to diagnose whether an error is with an ISP or MS? My ISP is
| happy to have me call and offer me tech support when I have trouble.
| Micrsoft says "It's not my fault. It's yours. Pay us to fix it or
| go away." And by cliché you mean what? "Don't shoot I'm unarmed"?
| The only clichés I have seen are in movies and books, because the
| definition is "a trite or obvious remark." Do not try to patronize
| me.
|
| I think i have covered all of your points. I have to go to sleep
| now. I have to go to the doctor in the morning
| be back about noon central standard time. Thank you for your time.
|
| "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
|
|| Lex
||
|| With all respect, these threads represent an infinitesimally small
|| amount of MS Office users.. many of the 'problems' are down to the
|| inability of the user, not just to use Office correctly, but all of
|| the other facets of their computer systems.. like it or not, the
|| biggest single cause of computer failure is the component between
|| the chair and the keyboard/mouse..
||
|| It is by no means a 'given' that a problem showing up in MS Office is
|| directly attributable to a bug in MS Office.. more that a few who
|| post in these newsgroups relate printing issues to Office, when in
|| fact they should be looking directly at the printer manual for
|| answers..
||
|| The same kind of scenario exists with Outlook, where ISP connection
|| is the problem, not some cliché in Office..
||
|| Users having problems re-installing Office may find that a scratch
|| on the CD is preventing a file being copied.. scratches are not part
|| of the manufacturer process.. this is a user error.. lost CD's and
|| keys are also not the fault of Microsoft..
||
|| So how much would you want to be paid per hour to sit by a phone?..
|| and how much do you think that it costs your employer to have you
|| sit at the phone?..
||
|| --
|| Mike Hall
|| MVP - Windows Shell/User
||
||
|| ||| There are lots of posts about this for 2003 edition. Most
||| companies DO charge for phone support. Major ones that don't
||| include Blizzard and Wizards
||| of the Coast. Microsoft not only charges for phone support, but
||| only gives u
||| one free message of support (from my understanding of the
||| description). They
||| do not offer an email address that I could find. "For many office
||| is not flawed and causes no problems" Look around at the threads.
||| These are the technological people who can figure out how to use
||| this website. Have you ever seen a surveye about how many people
||| have problems with basic Microsoft
||| programs? Most of those people just ask experienced friends and
||| family to fix their computers. Ask around your friends and
||| associates and then tell me
||| Microsoft Office is great.
|||
||| "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
|||
|||| Lex
||||
|||| For many, MS Office is not flawed and creates no problems..
|||| Microsoft can't
|||| be held responsible for the hardware upon which their software is
|||| installed.. as for charging for telephone support, if you had a
|||| company of
|||| your own, would you not charge?..
||||
|||| There are newsgroups and forums, no charge required, and also help
|||| files included within Microsoft programs.. I would suggest that
|||| you use them, rather than bleating about an issue which most
|||| likely is not down to anything that Microsoft has done..
||||
|||| --
|||| Mike Hall
|||| MVP - Windows Shell/User
||||
||||
|||| ||||| I think it is crazy to charge your CUSTOMERS if your program is
||||| doing something crazy. If the problem is they can't figure out
||||| how to send an
||||| email, sure charge them. But if the program is messing up and it
||||| is not
||||| listed in any of the support topics, the owner of the faulty
||||| program should
||||| not be charged. Especially since they paid for a self contained,
||||| operating
||||| program.
|||||
||||| ----------------
||||| This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds
||||| to the suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this
||||| suggestion, click the "I
||||| Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button,
||||| follow this
||||| link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader
||||| and then
||||| click "I Agree" in the message pane.
|||||
|||||
http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...-6e340474cafa&dg=microsoft.public.office.misc
B
Bob I
That's a good way to do business, but the issue here is not one of a
defective product, but one of user inability to follow instructions then
complaining that the product was at fault.
defective product, but one of user inability to follow instructions then
complaining that the product was at fault.