Jim Cheshire said:Clinton,
You have indeed missed quite a bit!
There are a lot of ways you can create an ASPX page in FrontPage. The
easiest, of course, is to just create a new page and save it as an ASP.NET
page. ASPX Files is now listed as a file type as well.
Another way would be to insert database results and use ASP.NET from the
wizard. You then get a DataGrid that you can format right within the
FrontPage user interface, but you can also transfer that page over to VS.NET
and edit the DataGrid in the Property Builder.
Another way would be to build against a WSS server and insert a Data View or
other Web Part.
Laying out a page that requires Web server controls is nothing special. Any
Web development tool can do it. However, FrontPage is a great choice
because it provides IntelliSense for ASP.NET in Code view.
I have never experienced VS.NET "mangling" my code. Maybe you can provide
us with more specifics.
clintonG said:I could 'Save As' a .bugaboo file too. The point is that FrontPage does
not know how to create a new .aspx file as a default selection and I was
also
astounded when I tried to open an existing .aspx file and Front Page decided
to load the entire file system directory schema where the .aspx originated.
All I wanted was an .aspx file opened not an embedded version of the
Windows Explorer that stomped on my formerly current open project.
FrontPage 2003 will not create a new ASP.NET 'site' either or did I
miss that too? This is the functionality that is expected and needed.
I don't see how you can say .aspx files are listed as file types. Where?
After the other disappointments I'm concerned about I haven't gotten around
to
this feature yet but I've read about it and will try it out. I'm not
expecting much
after observing the fact that the basics important to ASP.NET developers
have not even been addressed.
View
At the moment my focus is ASP.NET applications, I'm concerned with
productivity -- the same productivity that Macromedia has provided for its
customers who have been empowered with productivity -- and I'm more than
tired of the smirks and the thanks but no thanks when discussing the use of
FrontPage with customers who are enamored with DMX.
Yes, I'm interested in SPS but at $30,000 for a license as a service
provider
I see no business model I can take advantage of.
DMX continues to blow away Front Page and I've been waiting since FP2000
for Microsoft to wake up and lead but IMO all they produced was a DMX
interface
copy cat with some interesting and useful functions for secretaries and
desktop
publishers but light-weight to meaningless functionality for a web developer
who is seeking a companion product to be used with Visual Studio.NET.
Any? I don't see it. How does FrontPage 2003 drag and drop web server
controls into a layout and generate the proper syntax? In this regard I'm
expecting
the same functionality provided by the Visual Studio.NET designer toolbox
only without the mangled HTML source.
So please, tell me how to use FrontPage 2003 to create a web server control
and
I am not asking for a tutorial how to write the code by hand. I've been
doing that for
several years already -- again -- I'm looking for productivity enhancement
similar
to the Visual Studio.NET toolbox.
I'm not nitpicking here either. There are plenty of FrontPage 2003 issues
that
can be nitpicked. The little things are not show stoppers. I'm concerned
with the
expected and much needed functionality that is 100% absent and unaccounted
for.
The fact that the Visual Studio.NET 2003 designer mangles HTML is well known
-- mostly made known by DMX developers also trying to be productive
integrating
with Visual Studio.NET -- there are also a number of general newsgroup posts
regarding this issue. I've experienced it myself with Visual Studio.NET 2002
and
Visual Studio.NET 2003. The VisualStudio designer can't hold a candle
to the layout tools that FrontPage provides.
Thus, the developer using FrontPage 2003 hoping to efficiently and
productively layout the user interface must first generate the HTML
elements and then manually modify each and every HTML element to
convert it into a web server control before opening the .aspx file in
Visual Studio.NET.
** Using the Visual Studio.NET 'designer' for example to develop a
user interface for a web site is like going all the way back to FrontPage
when it was first acquired from Vermeer. It is that poor. The designer
stomps all over the HTML formatting. It writes HTML declarations out
of order within the 'page' flow and juxtaposes declarations one right after
the other forcing the developer to constantly scroll horizontally to enter
carriage returns to add white space when needing to read the source.
Temporarily of course as it will then stomp all over the HTML each time
the designer is re-displayed.
clintonG said:Step 1: Select File Menu
Step 2: Select New
Step 3: Select Blank Page (produces new_page_1.htm)
Step 4: Select File Menu
Step 5: Select Save As
Step 6: Rename new_page_1.htm
Step 7: Select 'Save as type' listbox control
Step 8: Select .aspx file type
Step 9: Select Save
I count that as 8 steps because I consider it manipulative and
dishonest to actually include Step 6 renaming of the file as a
'step' as renaming has to be done anyhow. Unless of course
FrontPage was designed well -- which it is not -- as it could easily
automatically create a new file and name it default.aspx if the
context was relevant.
I won't be bothering with responding to anything else you have
to say -- at least in this discussion -- as your ad hominem attacks
only show you prefer to present yourself as a liar and a babbling
moron the type of which I have no time nor concern for but I do
see something useful for your having done so as it helps others
come to understand what they can expect from you.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
A/E/C Consulting, Web Design, e-Commerce Software Development
Wauwatosa, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin USA
NET (e-mail address removed)
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/
designedJim Cheshire said:Clinton,
You are definitly not speaking with the voice of experience here. Some of
these comments are just plain wrong.
1. You say that FrontPage and VS.NET do not round-trip. What in the world
do you mean by that? Both are able to edit Web pages and both can open the
same Web site without any difficulties. As an example, I develop Jimco
Add-ins with ASP.NET, and I edit it using both FrontPage and VS.NET without
any problems.
2. You say that FrontPage cannot create a "new ASP.NET Web site." File,
New, Web Site. Add a page and save it as an ASP.NET page in FrontPage.
*BAM*! You've got an ASP.NET Web site. You seem to think that there is
some kind of magic that VS.NET performs to make a Web site ASP.NET specific.
There is no such thing.
3. You say that FrontPage 2003 cannot make a .aspx file without an 8-step
process. File, Save, page.aspx. That's three steps, and it's exactly the
same number of steps for saving any other kind of file.
4. You say that FrontPage doesn't know anything about a .aspx file
"format". What exactly is the .aspx file format? It's an ASCII file,
Clinton! It's just a Web page with a file extension that is mapped to a
specific ISAPI DLL in IIS. There IS no file format. However, FrontPage
does recognize ASP.NET server control code in a Web page, and it provides
great support for those who know how to write it.
5. You say FrontPage cannot create ASP.NET Server controls. Again, just
plain wrong. It offers IntelliSense support for ALL of the ASP.NET Server
controls. True, FrontPage doesn't have a Toolbox, but it is notisto
be a substitute for VS.NET in this way.
Not everything in an ASP.NET page is a Server control. This statementVS.NETso
far off-base that I'm not sure how to address it. A beginning ASP.NET book
will do you a world of good to understand how the technology works.
This is another one of your statements that says a lot without saying
anything at all. Some of us here have asked you to give us an example of
problems you've had with ASP.NET development. You haven't done so. My
opinion is that you haven't done so because you don't know how to develop
ASP.NET sites and are speaking from the voice of ignorance.
You are doing a great disservice to those who might want to learn ASP.NET
using FrontPage and VS.NET. To those people, I say this; I am not the only
experienced ASP.NET developer in this forum who believes that FrontPage 2003
is a GREAT tool for ASP.NET developers and is easily combined within
that regard. You can safely discount the points Clinton brings up because
they are not valid and are based on an elementary misunderstanding of the
technology.
--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com
FrontPageYes Martin, it would be more interesting but don't hold your
breath as there is very little that FrontPage 2003 has to offer
competent ASP.NET web developers and what is not being
said is much more important to learn that what is being said.
For example...
"All you need to know" he would say? Hardy Har Har
Here is what I have experienced...
** FrontPage 2003 does not interoperate with Visual Studio.NET
at all nor does it round-trip at all. Neither application knows
anything about the other and treats one another's resources like any
other file in the file system.
** FrontPage 2003 can not create a new ASP.NET site using a template.
**FrontPage 2003 will not generate a page directive.
** FrontPage 2003 can not even create an .aspx file without a ridiculous
8 step process.
**FrontPage 2003 knows nothing about the .aspx file format
which still must be imported rather than known as a native file format.
** FrontPage 2003 cannot generate web server controls when creating
a user interface and has no equivalent to the Visual Studio.NET toolbox
in the context of Web Forms (ASP.NET) development.
Thus, the developer using FrontPage 2003 hoping to efficiently and
productively layout the user interface must first generate the HTML
elements and then manually modify each and every HTML element to
convert it into a web server control before opening the .aspx file in
Visual Studio.NET.
That manual process may also be done in Visual Studio.NET of course
but the point is that FrontPage 2003 is WEB FORMS STOOPIT
and Visual Studio.NET 'designer' mangles the hell out of HTML
resulting in a state of affairs that is FUBAR.
** Using the Visual Studio.NET 'designer' for example to develop a
user interface for a web site is like going all the way back to FrontPage
when it was first acquired from Vermeer. It is that poor. The designer
stomps all over the HTML formatting. It writes HTML declarations out
of order within the 'page' flow and juxtaposes declarations one right after
the other forcing the developer to constantly scroll horizontally to enter
carriage returns to add white space when needing to read the source.
Temporarily of course as it will then stomp all over the HTML each time
the designer is re-displayed.
My statements are not as refined as they may have been but I have
some business to attend to...
--
<%= Clinton Gallagher
A/E/C Consulting, Web Design, e-Commerce Software Development
Wauwatosa, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin USA
NET (e-mail address removed)
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/
Martin,
I do cover such features as IntelliSense of ASP.NET server controls.
There really isn't that much to using VS.NET and FrontPage on the same
site.
Because both can use the FrontPage Server Extensions, both can open the
same
Web site. Therefore, all you need to know is how to work in
ANDtohow to work in VS.NET.
--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com
I would be real interested in hearing more about using both FP and
VS.NET
together to create web pages.
I am in the early stages of designing an app that fills out PDF forms
based
on a questionaire-type dialogs (see Web Turbotax). I am coming
theknowconclusion that I will need to use both FP2003 (for static parts) and
VS.NET
(for inter-activiness).
Does your book cover any of that? Other pointers?
thanks,
marty nicholson
Wow, I couldn't possibly disagree more with this statement. I
frequently
use FrontPage in combination with VS.NET applications, and I
manytoother
hard-core developers who do as well.
--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com
message
All I am saying is that FP2003 remains a failure with regard
its
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