I'll never use this crap again

J

Joe

How in the world Microsoft can sell this crap is a
complete mystery. Both products, server and pro are rife
with bugs, and the product support expectation that I
reboot, the uninstall and reinstall, then move all the
projects to sharepoint, then add them back one at a time,
is sheer madness. This is a symptom of a systemic problem
with Microsoft as a company. I expect the stock to
continue to sink. Primavera might cost a bit more, but at
least it works.
 
G

Guest

Joe, I belong to a company, partner with Microsoft for
deploying and creating solutions around MS Project.
Keep in mind Project is no Word or Excel, even though it
is considered (wrongly ?) as a office tool. It is the one
MS product that do not look, behave or get used like any
other product in the Microsoft offering.

This is a productuvity enhancement tool; a professional
one. Implementing a MS Project PILOT solution takes about
30 days, and I can assure you we manage to work aroung 98%
of the bugs. It is just a matter of construction your
model right. The solutions we create, based on MSP do work
and our clients (major names in all industries) are happy.

May be the product you chose is not at your level. May be
MSP 2003 standard is sufficient for your needs.
May be you need a bit of help in shaping the solution.....

Regards

Olivier
 
D

Dave

Well I have to say you need specialist help to get it
working and expect this will take a bit of time and hence
a lot of money. By the time you take this into account
(along with the number of servers and other licences you
seem to need) I doubt it works out that much cheaper than
some other products which I regard as easier to use and
more flexible.

Joe, the best product I have trialled was eproject. May
be one to take a look at as I found the interface easy to
use and seemed to be the most complete/easy package I
could find (having looked at practically every piece of
software about).

Dave
 
M

Mike

I have to agree with Joe. I don't know how MS can sell
such a terrible software implementation. The entire
architecture behind project server is so flawwed that I
don't think any version will ever get it right unless
they start from the ground up again.
 
G

Gary L. Chefetz [MVP]

Joe:

You really should wait until the day after Microsoft announces earnings to
make such dire predictions. Microsoft's strong profits sent the NASDAQ up
today. I bet some of this is driven by the strong success Project Server is
enjoying in the market place.
 
P

Pat Kelecy

Is it that it is truly flawed, or just requires a very high level of
expertise (specific to the product) to install and get working correctly.
The later has been more my impression, since a lot of people are using it
(and successfully, I believe). Also, I thought PS2003 fixed a lot of the
problems with previous '02 version. I wonder which version Joe is/was
using???
 
R

RonSo

I think Joe's frustration is due to the tremendous gap between what Microsoft advertises as a solution, and what it takes to implement the solution. The marketing materials surrounding Project 2003 and Project 2003 Server all indicate that this is the easiest, cheapest, and most feature rich solution to your project management challenges. They even emphasise "enterprise connectivity"

It may all eventually work, and work well, but at day 14 and having used up all of my MSCD support calls, and still no easy way to simply associate some accounting codes with tasks and corresponding resource work hours, I also wonder. And I am a PMP and was a certified Project 98 professional, and have been in the business of software development for 25 years, and my company was the 1999 Microsoft Fusion Award 1st place winner for best business operations solution

I am here on Saturday testing all combinations of settings, permissions, views, and logging in under different levels of permissions, all to try and understand why sometimes fields are editable, sometimes not, timescales get changed unpredictably, week ending periods don't correspond...goes on and on. Just for starters, when every PM manual tells you to NEVER EVER use %complete to establish remaining work hours does Microsoft make that the default behavior of their %complete calculations? Simple things like that are what drive us project managers nuts. BTW, I told them about the %complete back in 1998.
 
G

Gary L. Chefetz [MVP]

Ron:

Most people are frustrated because of an unrealistic expectation that
enterprise software is as easy to deploy as a desktop application like Word.
Microsoft did an excellent job warning folks about the complexities of
deploying the software in the Enterprise Implementation Framework, that is
readily available for download and substantially promoted as the official
deployment guide from Microsoft. Despite the fact that there's even a link
to it from the Admin page in Project Web Access, very few people take the
time to review the EIF or even the installation guide before popping the CD
into the drive and double clicking setup. Many folks, particularly IT
resources, simply don't think that reading directions and documentation
apply to them.

If 14 support calls is all it takes you to deploy the software in your
organization, I'd say you "got off cheap." Those who choose not to accept
Microsoft's very strongly emphasized recommendation to obtain expert
assistance with their deployment are simply choosing to pay the price in
frustration rather than currency. Microsoft at least gives you the choice;
some of Microsoft's competitors don't offer the software license without the
professional services engagement.




RonSo said:
I think Joe's frustration is due to the tremendous gap between what
Microsoft advertises as a solution, and what it takes to implement the
solution. The marketing materials surrounding Project 2003 and Project 2003
Server all indicate that this is the easiest, cheapest, and most feature
rich solution to your project management challenges. They even emphasise
"enterprise connectivity".
It may all eventually work, and work well, but at day 14 and having used
up all of my MSCD support calls, and still no easy way to simply associate
some accounting codes with tasks and corresponding resource work hours, I
also wonder. And I am a PMP and was a certified Project 98 professional,
and have been in the business of software development for 25 years, and my
company was the 1999 Microsoft Fusion Award 1st place winner for best
business operations solution.
I am here on Saturday testing all combinations of settings, permissions,
views, and logging in under different levels of permissions, all to try and
understand why sometimes fields are editable, sometimes not, timescales get
changed unpredictably, week ending periods don't correspond...goes on and
on. Just for starters, when every PM manual tells you to NEVER EVER use
%complete to establish remaining work hours does Microsoft make that the
default behavior of their %complete calculations? Simple things like that
are what drive us project managers nuts. BTW, I told them about the
%complete back in 1998.
 
B

Brian K - Project MVP

Gary said:
Ron:

Most people are frustrated because of an unrealistic expectation that
enterprise software is as easy to deploy as a desktop application
like Word. Microsoft did an excellent job warning folks about the
complexities of deploying the software in the Enterprise
Implementation Framework, that is readily available for download and
substantially promoted as the official deployment guide from
Microsoft. Despite the fact that there's even a link to it from the
Admin page in Project Web Access, very few people take the time to
review the EIF or even the installation guide before popping the CD
into the drive and double clicking setup. Many folks, particularly IT
resources, simply don't think that reading directions and
documentation apply to them.

If 14 support calls is all it takes you to deploy the software in your
organization, I'd say you "got off cheap." Those who choose not to
accept Microsoft's very strongly emphasized recommendation to obtain
expert assistance with their deployment are simply choosing to pay
the price in frustration rather than currency. Microsoft at least
gives you the choice; some of Microsoft's competitors don't offer the
software license without the professional services engagement.

I have to agree. To those that say Project Server is hard to install I
would ask: How many other Enterprise PM solutions have you tried to
install on your own? There is a reason that most of them REQUIRE a big
consulting contract with purchase. They are VERY hard to install.

As to the comments about cost in this thread: Project Server, feature
for feature, is by far the cheapest EPM solution out there. Sure you
have to buy other licenses but you have to get those for the other
solutions too! If they store their data on a SQL box or an Oracle box
you will need a sql cal or an oracle license. If they install their
server components on a Windows box you will need a windows license.

If you really think Project Server is expensive and hard to install go
try to install Artemis by yourself, or PlanView or Business Engine.
Make sure you pack a lunch and leave a trail of bread crumbs so your
family members will be able to find your body! If you think Project
Server is hard to install and configure those other apps will KILL YOU.

which of these other apps have over 800 pages of deployment, install
and administration documentation on their public websites? Which ones
offer technical training documents on their apps for FREE? Which ones
invest money in getting experienced field implementation experts to
write deployment guides and post them for FREE? Try ZERO. MS has gone
WAY, WAY, WAY out of their way to assist those that ignored their
suggestion that you get help from a consulting partner. The other guys
MAKE you pay 20K, 30K, 50K and up for consulting contracts before they
will even sell you the software.

So please, lets be fair about the criticisms shall we? Sure there are
bugs to be fixed. Find me an app, ANY app that is without bugs. Sure it
is a challenge to deploy and configure. Find me an enterprise
application (Peoplesoft, BAAN, SAP, etc, etc) that is easy to deploy.

<stepping down from soap box>
 
G

Guest

I must agree with you, Pat.

Just consider these names in the industry (in Europe; I'm
not sure about the US) use MSP 2003 Server or 2002 Server
to manage their projects: Athens olympic comitee 2004,
German Fifa world cup 2006 organization, Rhodia, Peugeot,
The European Commission, Dassault Aviation, Airbus (EADS),
UK ministry of justice,............

These companies are demanding and they would not tolerate
a buggy software.......

Think about it...
 
G

Guest

SO TRUE !!!
-----Original Message-----
Ron:

Most people are frustrated because of an unrealistic expectation that
enterprise software is as easy to deploy as a desktop application like Word.
Microsoft did an excellent job warning folks about the complexities of
deploying the software in the Enterprise Implementation Framework, that is
readily available for download and substantially promoted as the official
deployment guide from Microsoft. Despite the fact that there's even a link
to it from the Admin page in Project Web Access, very few people take the
time to review the EIF or even the installation guide before popping the CD
into the drive and double clicking setup. Many folks, particularly IT
resources, simply don't think that reading directions and documentation
apply to them.

If 14 support calls is all it takes you to deploy the software in your
organization, I'd say you "got off cheap." Those who choose not to accept
Microsoft's very strongly emphasized recommendation to obtain expert
assistance with their deployment are simply choosing to pay the price in
frustration rather than currency. Microsoft at least gives you the choice;
some of Microsoft's competitors don't offer the software license without the
professional services engagement.




between what
Microsoft advertises as a solution, and what it takes to implement the
solution. The marketing materials surrounding Project 2003 and Project 2003
Server all indicate that this is the easiest, cheapest, and most feature
rich solution to your project management challenges. They even emphasise
"enterprise connectivity". 14 and having used
up all of my MSCD support calls, and still no easy way to simply associate
some accounting codes with tasks and corresponding resource work hours, I
also wonder. And I am a PMP and was a certified Project 98 professional,
and have been in the business of software development for 25 years, and my
company was the 1999 Microsoft Fusion Award 1st place winner for best
business operations solution. settings, permissions,
views, and logging in under different levels of permissions, all to try and
understand why sometimes fields are editable, sometimes not, timescales get
changed unpredictably, week ending periods don't correspond...goes on and
on. Just for starters, when every PM manual tells you to NEVER EVER use
%complete to establish remaining work hours does Microsoft make that the
default behavior of their %complete calculations? Simple things like that
are what drive us project managers nuts. BTW, I told them about the
%complete back in 1998.


.
 
G

Guest

Ms Project within Microsof tis a business of its own...!

If MS Project Server is too hard to deploy for you.....go
back to Project 95.....

LOL
 
J

J Baird

I'm just frustracted with the data problems, user impressions, and the fact
that hot-fixes for these issues aren't available from Microsoft's web site.
My server has a well-known problem, but I can't get the fix without calling
Microsoft!

- Knowledge Base article 812639 (Duplicate Projects Appear in Project Web
Access) covered a HUGE problem for us. The duplicate schedule names on the
Project page was very confusing to the users.

- Knowledge Base article 306290 (You experience long delays...) wasted a lot
of users time, and caused a lot of frustration.

- I'm most frustrated that the [Clean up Microsoft Project Database]
function didn't get rid of the "deleted" schedule, and no one has been able
to provide a solution on this newsgroup. I haven't been able to find a
Knowledge Base article on this either. How do I explain this one to the
users? Data problems can kill user confidence in a system, in a very short
period of time.
 
B

Brian K - Project MVP

J said:
I'm just frustracted with the data problems, user impressions, and
the fact that hot-fixes for these issues aren't available from
Microsoft's web site. My server has a well-known problem, but I
can't get the fix without calling Microsoft!

- Knowledge Base article 812639 (Duplicate Projects Appear in Project
Web Access) covered a HUGE problem for us. The duplicate schedule
names on the Project page was very confusing to the users.

- Knowledge Base article 306290 (You experience long delays...)
wasted a lot of users time, and caused a lot of frustration.

- I'm most frustrated that the [Clean up Microsoft Project Database]
function didn't get rid of the "deleted" schedule, and no one has
been able to provide a solution on this newsgroup. I haven't been
able to find a Knowledge Base article on this either. How do I
explain this one to the users? Data problems can kill user
confidence in a system, in a very short period of time.


Joe said:
How in the world Microsoft can sell this crap is a
complete mystery. Both products, server and pro are rife
with bugs, and the product support expectation that I
reboot, the uninstall and reinstall, then move all the
projects to sharepoint, then add them back one at a time,
is sheer madness. This is a symptom of a systemic problem
with Microsoft as a company. I expect the stock to
continue to sink. Primavera might cost a bit more, but at
least it works.

They want you to call in so that they can verify that the reason you
are seeing issues will really be solved with the hotfix. The last thing
they want is for hotfixes to start getting deployed where they are not
the fix for the issue.
 
G

Guest

You've got to be f****ng kidding me! Has everyone in
here been brainwashed by the Microsoft marketing team?

Let's face it. Both eProject and Primavera blow the
doors off Project Server. Neither of them are hamstrung
by trying to tie 4 or 5 disparate pieces of software
together.

Why ms insists on using things like front page extensions
is beyond me. They ALWAYS create installation problems
for some people. And that's just one example of poor
design.

What about the com+ tool. Who built that? It feels like
a security breech waiting to happen.

And how about those passwords stored in the registry.
Nice.

This product should not be considered an enterprise class
product. It's more like a desktop application with some
web enhancements that don't seem to work reliably.
 
B

Brian K - Project MVP

You've got to be f****ng kidding me! Has everyone in
here been brainwashed by the Microsoft marketing team?

No we read the documentation.
Let's face it. Both eProject and Primavera blow the
doors off Project Server. Neither of them are hamstrung
by trying to tie 4 or 5 disparate pieces of software
together.

eProject: Windows, SQL, IIS, eProject. That is 4, right? :)

Primavera: SQL/Oracle, ISS or other web Server, windows, Primavera: 4
again! :)

Project Server: Windows, WSS, IIS, SQL, Project Server: 5. And if you
do not want to use the Issues, Risks or Docs then you don't need WSS so
in that case it would be 4 'disparate' products.

If you are going to criticise the product at least do it accurately.

Why ms insists on using things like front page extensions
is beyond me. They ALWAYS create installation problems
for some people. And that's just one example of poor
design.

Project Server does not use Front Page Extensions.

What about the com+ tool. Who built that? It feels like
a security breech waiting to happen.

Why do you think so? It is a small utility meant to tell a COM
application which Windows accounts to use when performing their
functions. What were you expecting from the app? Something fancy?
And how about those passwords stored in the registry.
Nice.

They are in the registry ON THE SERVER. If you can see the registry on
the SERVER you can change those passwords anyway!
This product should not be considered an enterprise class
product. It's more like a desktop application with some
web enhancements that don't seem to work reliably.

They work pretty well on the 20 systems I have deployed. If you have
some questions about how to get your system running this group is a
great place to find it. There are MANY people here that would be happy
to help you figure out what went wrong with your deployment.

But coming here to vent is not going to get your system up and running.

So do you want some help?
 

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