New problem with Firefox

[CWWJ]

David F.: A couple of years ago you were of invaluable assistance to me in
getting my company's web site up and running using Publisher 2003. I had
issues with Firefox which you and others helped me solve; I downloaded
Firefox at that time, and after a bit of tweaking, my site worked perfectly
on Firefox, and it still does. However, at my office we have recently
installed new computers with 20" LCD monitors and also Firefox. Now the web
site has numerous minor glitches and a couple of major ones that I attribute
to a sizing problem. First, text boxes throughout the site are re-sized much
larger so the text no longer fills the space. This is a cosmetic problem
only; one that I could live with (but would rather not). But I have two
submission forms that are very important, and these have buttons and boxes
that have moved up on the page and are now not synced with the text that
tells what the buttons and boxes are for. So far, we have received no
complaints from our clients, most of whom probably use IE, but I would like
to fix this problem if possible. My URL is http://www.burdin-adr.com.
Thanks.

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

The forms page doesn't work in IE & FF, monitor size doesn't matter.

 

[DavidF]

I remember your site now that I see it. Still looks good in IE, but yeah,
that forms page I looked at was unusable in FF. In fact all the pages look
pretty bad in FF, with all the graphics oversized.

I suspect that Rob is correct in that it is not the *size* of the monitors,
but it may be related to the settings of the monitor you use to produce your
site with. Publisher HTML output is at a default of 96 dpi, and you can end
up with jumbled pages if you publish with a monitor set at 120 dpi.

Right click your desktop > Properties > Settings > Advanced. If your DPI
setting is 120 dpi, then change that to 96 dpi, and OK out. Open your
Publisher web publication, Publish to the Web and produce new web files.
Direct those files to a folder on your computer where you can easily find
them. Then open and test the .htm files on the computers where the pages are
all jumbled in FF. Do the pages look OK in both FF and IE?

DavidF

 

[CWWJ]

Thanks, Rob and David F. But now I am really confused. I just tested the
forms pages on both FF and IE and they work perfectly. And they have been
working perfectly for more than two years. I have asked three other FF users
to check the site to see if anything was wrong and none could find a problem.
In two years of running this site we have booked many mediations on line and
we have never had a complaint about either the look or the functionality of
the site. I also access the site regularly on a computer where I do
volunteer work and found no problems on either IE or FF. This is a very
recent -- two or three days ago -- problem.

 

[John G]

The difference is between IE6 and IE 7.
IE 6 looks Ok IE7 and Firefox both fail on the forms
and there are some problems with the top line links on the
Links Page in both IE 7 an FF. that do not exist when viewed in IE6

 

[Mike Koewler]

David,

My monitor is set to 968 dpi and the form page is mucked up badly.
However, the form works for me, in that I can submit it. The images all
appear to be correctly sized also.

Mike

 

[DavidF]

I assume that you meant 96 dpi, which is the same as mine. I didn't test to
see if the form would submit. I was just looking at the page layout. The
difference in the size of the graphics and even the page width is noticeable
when I view the pages with IE6 and FF, with FF showing the oversized
graphics and page widths...and the jumbled form page. Which browsers and
what versions are you viewing the pages with?

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

OK. What did you do two or three days ago that was different? Was this when
you changed to the new monitors? Did you check the dpi settings as I
suggested? What is the setting on the computer you use to produce your web
files? Did you change out an old monitor for one of the new ones?

It sounds like things are further complicated by whether you are using IE6,
IE7 or FF as per John's post. Which versions are you running?

You are running Pub 2003 correct? Did you run the compress graphics tool
before you Publish to the Web?

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

By the way, the forms work ok in both IE6 and FF...it is just the page
layout that is messed up.

DavidF

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

That's what I meant as well...I should have been more clear.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[CWWJ]

Thanks for all the input. I think the problem is that most of our clients
(and friends who are FF users as well) have their displays set at 120 for
easy reading, so they have not noticed any problem. The site was created
more than two years ago with the display set at 120dpi and we have literally
had zero complaints and the forms are in use by clients regularly. In fact,
some of you visited the site back then with both IE and FireFox and noted no
problems. Over the weekend, I reset my display to 96dpi and found the same
problems you have noted here. I have redone some pages that look okay now in
96dpi but requre horizontal scrolling to view in 120dpi. I notice other web
sites look the same in both resolutions. How do I fix this size problem,
since so many people are viewing our site with 120dpi displays? And thanks
again for your always helpful suggestions.

 

[Mike Koewler]

David,

I used Mozilla 1.7.12, didn't try it in IE. For some reason IE seems to
take a lot longer to load sites for me.

Mike

 

[DavidF]

Darn. I wish that your problems were because of another issue, as I don't
have a good solution for you if it is solely because of the 96 dpi vs. 120
dpi screen setting.

If you don't mind I would like to step back and ask for some clarification.
Earlier in this thread you said that this was a "recent -- two or three days
ago -- problem". Would you explain what you meant? Did you publish new html
pages? Was it tied in with installing the new monitors? What exactly
happened when this problem occurred...or did it just become apparent that
you had a problem then?

And to help me more, if you could also address these questions:

It sounds like things are further complicated by whether you are using IE6
or IE7 as per John's post. Which version are you running?

You are running Pub 2003 correct? Did you run the compress graphics tool
before you publish your pages? Reference: Compress graphics file sizes to
create smaller Publisher Web pages (2003):
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/publisher/HA011266301033.aspx

And finally, and probably least important, have you run the Design Checker
under Tools?

I am asking these questions with the hope that something else is causing or
at least contributing to the problem other than the 96/120 issue. I will
elaborate on that issue later...thanks.

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

Hi Mike,

I have also noticed that FireFox seems to load more quickly than IE, and am
pretty sure I have read some documentation on that somewhere. I am pretty
sure that Publisher webs load faster in FF. I also prefer the way FF loads
the images incrementally. IE waits and displays the image only after it has
fully downloaded, which at least feels like it takes longer.

I do use FF when I can, but have some sites that require IE, so that is
still my default browser. But I have been dragging my heels about moving
from IE6 to IE7... I am surprised you haven't switched over to FF.

DavidF

 

[CWWJ]

Thanks, David. When I said two or three days ago, I was referring to the
installation of new computers and monitors at my office, plus install of
FireFox 2.0. The new displays were set at 96dpi instead of 120, as had been
the case with the previous monitors. My coordinator informed me that in
FireFox the forms pages were jumbled and some text was out of place on one
other page. The reason this puzzled me was that this site was designed at a
120dpi setting and has been running for two years. It has worked perfectly
on both IE6 and FireFox 2.0. The forms pages are used regularly by our
clients to book mediations and do evaluations. We have received zero
complaints from anyone. This leads me to believe that most of our clients
have their displays set at 120dpi, as I always do -- it's just easier to
read. I have since redone the pages at 96dpi and am just having to live with
the weird look the padding produces when viewed in 96dpi. But now the added
problem is that while the 120dpi version worked perfectly on both IE and
FireFox, now when I try to view the site at 120dpi on FireFox it is an
absolute mess, while it works fine in IE. This is a serious design problem
with Publisher -- sizing. I can increase the page size to fill the screen
from left to right at 96dpi, but when it is viewed at 120 of course it
requires scrolling. I don't think there is an answer to this -- it's simply
a Publisher problem. I could re-design my pages to have them float against a
background and more or less "center" them by moving everything to the right
-- David Bartosik sort of suggested this in a piece he wrote a while back.
If you have any suggestions, I'd appreciate it.

 

[DavidF]

Ok. Thanks for the explanation. I am going to assume that you do run the
compress graphics function and the Design Checker, and that the issue is
primarily the 96/120 dpi issue. Unfortunately there isn't a good answer, but
here is the explantion I promised.

About 4 to 5 years ago I got a new laptop that produced Publisher pages that
looked different than when I produced those pages from my desktop. I sent
the files to David Bartosik the MVP who was active at the time, who agreed
that the code was different, but we couldn't figure out why. About a year
later or so, with the help of others in the group, I narrowed it down to the
laptop screen being set at 120 dpi and the desktop monitor set at 96 dpi.
With most computer monitors coming preset at 96 dpi, and Publisher's default
output at 96, the best solution was to reset the laptop, and produce the
pages at 96. However, that meant that when the pages were viewed at 120 dpi,
they looked jumbled. I also compensated on the laptop by right clicking the
screen, properties, Appearance and increasing the font size to large. This
might make it easier for you to read...

So, you are correct that the problem is with the way the Publisher html
coding engine works, and you are probably becoming more correct that more of
your customers are using monitors set at 120 dpi....especially new laptops.
You might not be correct that no one had problems before, however. It may be
that those customers that did have problems didn't bother calling or
emailing and complaining...they just left in frustration. There is no way of
knowing.

At this point I don't know of a good way to workaround this problem, and
expect it to become an increasing problem in the future. Hopefully MSFT will
address this in the future. Right now I would guess that the majority of
people have their monitors and screens set at 96 dpi vs. 120, but I can't
prove it. Never the less, I think the safest choice of two bad choices is to
publish your pages at 96 dpi, but I do have one idea for a workaround.

There have been several Publisher users post here that are producing their
sites in multi-languages using multiple Publisher files (an example:
http://www.somoscapazes.org/). To do this, they produce two different
version of their site and provide a link at the top of the home page linking
to the other home page in the other language. They upload their primary
language site to the main directory, and their secondary language site to a
subfolder on their host. Since your site appears to be fairly static, you
could do the same thing but produce one site at 96 and the other at 120.
Then on the forms pages...maybe even the home page, add a notice at the top
advising the viewer that if the page appears jumbled, to click on the
link...which would take them to the same page in the other format. Like I
said, there is no *good* workaround but at least this way you would give the
viewer a choice. If you want to pursue this, I can explain in more detail.
It isn't that hard...I have a site that is built with more than 50 Publisher
files and subfolders...

As per your dislike of how the pages look left justified, and trying to fill
the space, I have better news. The group has been working on a way to center
Publisher web pages, and have finally found a fairly efficient way (an
example of a centered page, and a second example of two languages:
http://www.bollnascamping.se/index-filer/Page1600.htm click on the flags).
Rather than explain how to do this here, scroll down to my post on May 31st:
Centering Pub 2003 and 2007 pages... where I gave some detailed instructions
and others have chimed with their comments and improvements. Once you get
Replace in Files set up correctly, it takes only two clicks to change the
code in your pages so that they will dynamically center in whatever size
browser window they are viewed in. Using this you could go back to making
your pages the default 760 pixels width (or no larger than 984 pixels wide
as the new widest default in Pub 2007). You are correct that horizontal
scrolling should be avoided in my opinion.

Sorry I can't provide better help. MSFT really does need to address this
96/120 dpi issue. At least now you know what is happening...

DavidF

 

[CWWJ]

It is helpful to know that a centering option is now available. However,
that is not going to solve the problem of a FireFox user at 120dpi visiting
my 96dpi site. They will find chaos.

Let me say something about our clients. Most (nearly all) are repeat
clients from a relatively small community -- lawyers and in some cases,
judges. They book mediations with us most often by phone and mail. However,
they have booked a considerable number online -- probably a couple of hundred
in the last two years -- and we have received (my coordinator tells me now)
only one complaint, vs. dozens of thank you's for making this feature
available. That's what leads me to believe that we have a preponderance of
aol and yahoo users (IE works with both 96 and 120 dpi), and whatever FireFox
users are out there are set at 120dpi. In other words, our clients know in
advance they are either going to use us or someone else -- a non-functioning
forms page won't lead them elsewhere.

I like your idea of the link to a 96dpi version of the web site for FireFox
users. But although I think Publisher is a good, easy-to-use web authoring
tool for simple sites like mine, I am baffled by the "padding" issue. I
can't imagine developing software that will publish files at a default 96dpi
knowing that you are going to have 25% of the right-hand side of the page
blank. I know some sites do this -- link to Love Field or DFW Airport from
our web site -- but unless you know in advance this is the way it is going to
look and design your pages accordingly, your site is going to look weird.

I had thought I might just set my left page margin at about 20% of the page
to give the illusion of centering. That would give me 55% of the viewable
screen for my content, and then instead of using big blocks of color and text
boxes inside frames laid out like a newsletter or brochure, I would let text,
photos and graphics "float" over a background color or texture.

Meantime, I have republished the pages at 120dpi as before, and I'm relieved
that everything works on both IE and FireFox. Whew. Thanks again -- now I'm
going to visit your info on centering.

CWWJ

 

[John G]

First your evaluation form still fails in both FF2 and IE 7 but not in IE6.

Second where do you get this 96 or 120 dpi from??
My screen is set to 1024 by 768 Pixels and the only other setting with this
hardware is only 800 by 600 Pixels.
Your evaluation form fails at either setting.
I have not tried to use the for I have only looked at its mixed up layout.

 

[DavidF]

Hi John G.,

Right click your desktop, properties, settings...that is where you see the
screen resolution. Then click the Advanced button and under General you will
see the DPI setting. Changing the screen resolution doesn't affect the
layout of the page.

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

Only you can decide what dpi setting to use as a default...you know your
customers. And yes the forms page looks ok with IE6, but according to John
G. not in IE7. There simply is no simply answer I am afraid. Publish at 96
dpi and some people at 120 dpi are going to have problems...and the other
way around. My suggestion to build your site with two Pub files is not a
great workaround, but I can't think of another at this point that would
guarantee your customers a page that will look ok in whatever browser at
either 96 or 120 dpi. And like I said, if you want to discuss that more, let
me know...there are a couple ways to go.

I do think you are misunderstanding something though in terms of laying your
page out so it fills the space on YOUR monitor. You may be viewing your site
with your monitor set at 1280 X 768 and your browser window at full screen.
But I have my monitor set at 1152X864 so any page you design to "fill" a
browser window at 1280 pixels wide is going to require me to scroll
horizontally. And what if I have it set at 800 pixels wide? In reality I
rarely view a page at full screen, and if I do, I almost always have the
favorites or the history sidebar, which means I have significantly less than
1152 pixels width to view the page. I also tend to use multiple browser
windows set at less than 800 pixels wide without the sidebars...a leftover
practice from using IE6 without tabs. What I am saying is that just because
it looks like it is filling your browser on your computer, doesn't mean it
won't overflow mine or still come up short for that young person's eyes that
has their monitor set to 1920 pixels wide.

I do hear what you are saying about the excess padding not looking
good...and depending on the background used, I would agree. But the
advantage of using the centering code is that you can make a 760 pixel width
page dynamically center in whatever width browser window it is viewed in. If
it is viewed in a 800 pixel wide browser window, there will be a tiny amount
of padding on both sides of the page. If it is viewed on a 1920 pixel wide
window, there will be 580 pixels of padding on both sides, but it is likely
to look better than if it was left justified. Anyway, I just wanted to
clarify that...and in case you want to read David Bartosik's article again,
here it is: Understanding background padding in a Publisher web (aka white
space) : http://msmvps.com/blogs/dbartosik/archive/2006/01/07/80563.aspx

Enough for now...

DavidF