ON2007B2: "Flip through pages" broken?

[Grant Robertson]

What do you prefer: drag & drop for page tabs or flip through?
Both require to tap on a page tab with the stylus and then drag the
stylus up or down on the screen. So you have one user action, but two
features for it. Which one do you pick?

You do make a very valid point. However, the first responder made a very
valid point. It worked just fine the way it was in OneNote. I will be
terribly dissapointed if we lose that feature for good.

 

[Grant Robertson]

but an increase
in discoverability of the feature. Yanking to the right and then using
drag & drop just isn't very intuitive and so most users probably never
were able to find that feature.

Discoverability, discSCHmoverability! If we reduced all porgram to what
idiots can figure out without ever reading the instructions then all we
would be able to do on a computer is play tick-tack-toe, and only use the
Xes. If it was a real issue then they could have just switched the
features. I wouldn't mind having to drag out then slide up and down to
flip through pages. But to loose it altogether is very disappointing.

As this probably sounds like I am apologizing for Microsoft (which I am
not, I am mainly explaining what I think the reasoning behind changing
this is)

Actually, I would not consider this to be apologist. It is a rational
explaination that I appreciate. But just saying that a feature we will
miss was worthless makes it sound as if you are.

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Discoverability, discSCHmoverability! If we reduced all porgram to
what

idiots can figure out without ever reading the instructions then all we
would be able to do on a computer is play tick-tack-toe, and only use the
Xes. If it was a real issue then they could have just switched the

Actually, what you'd get is the ribbon UI. Discoverability was its
primary design guiding principle. If you want a good opinion what this
means for efficiency, etc, you can probably ask any Excel MVP or anyone
writing a book with Word 2007...

Actually, I would not consider this to be apologist. It is a rational
explaination that I appreciate. But just saying that a feature we will
miss was worthless makes it sound as if you are.

Sorry about that. That was rather unprofessional from me.

I would encourage you to submit feedback on this via Connect and ask
everyone who wants to keep the feature to vote on the Connect feedback.
I just submitted a design change request on this via the private bug
submission mechanism, so someone at MS has to at least look at it.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

This should work now with Control-Scroll. So hold Control down
and scroll with your mouse wheel when you have your cursor over
the page tabs.

And how about the needs of TabletPC users?

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

You mean "tabs"

Sounds like your notebook screams for suborganization in more
folders and sections

ROFLMAO
But only too true!

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

You have one user action, but two features which you both want
to be triggered with it. You can only get one.

Why?
If there are two things, couldn't there simply be a togle switch?

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Yup, the toggle is called the "control" key
I have had a bug open on this issue for quite some time now. As it
didn't get closed right away, I'm assuming that the ON team is
discussing what to do with flip through on tablet PCs. They could still
close it as "expected behavior", but at least they will have discussed
the issue.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Yup, the toggle is called the "control" key

Where is this key on a "Tablet"??
Not too wise a decision IMO.

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid]

My tablet still has a keyboard You could assign any of the tablet
keys to be "control".

Patrick Schmid

 

[Grant Robertson]

My tablet still has a keyboard You could assign any of the tablet
keys to be "control".

But I only have three keys and a modifier key to work with for 6 total
functions. Two are use up by page up and page down. One for blanking the
screen. One for forcing a rotation because my Acer C300 has the same
auto-rotate-way-too-often bug as many other Acers. One for enter and one
for escape. Tell me, which should I give up because the ON developers
decided to abandon a feature they had billed as a major selling point in
the previous version.

There are many other ways to add functionality to a stylus tap. You
pretending that they don't exist and that pressing the control key should
be easy for anybody doesn't jive with the whole tablet/stylus centric
model that ON is supposedly built around.

Lets take a look at all the ways of modifying a stylus tap:

Just the tap itself.
Tap-and-hold.
Double-tap.
Double-tap-and-hold.
Hold the stylus button and tap.
Hold the stylus button and tap-and-hold.
Hold the stylus button and double-tap.
Hold the stylus button and double-tap-and-hold.

I won't even mention that all of the above variations can also be done
with the eraser end because not all styluses have eraser ends. Besides,
that would make people think they would be erasing things.

After doing any of the above the software would change the cursor to
indicate a special mode and then allow you to drag the cursor and perform
that special function.

All of the above can be done with one hand, using only the stylus. Or you
can require the user to use the other hand (which may be needed to
actually hold the tablet) to hold down a key that may not be available on
a Tablet PC in tablet mode. As a developer I don't think I would waste
much time deciding which would be the best way to provide an extra
function. Nor would I waste much time defending someone else's bad
decision. Yes, some of the methods are not as "discoverable" as just
tapping on the screen and dragging. But that is what instructions are
for. You choose the most used functions and assign them to the most
discoverable or intuitive action and work your way down the priority
list.

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Am Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2006 17:14 schrieb Patrick Schmid

My tablet still has a keyboard
LOL.

My tablet still has a keyboard

So its not really a "TabletPC". It's a hybrid notebook

But honestly speaking: Are you really doing work with the pen when
your machine is in notebook mode?
Not too comfortable (at least on my HP tc1100 with the display not too
stable and the palm on the keyboard when clicking in the lower left
corner.
Do you really want to say that it was a viable way to press Ctrl and
use the pen for scrolling for flipping through pages in the same
moment??

You could assign any of the tablet keys to be "control".

You are missing the point:
How many programmable buttons do you have on your model of TabletPC?
Not too many. And if one directs one to Ctrl and one to Alt (nedded
for combining containers) etc., etc., there is not much left
And it will be missing for other basic features.

My HP tc1100 just has 6 so-called "Command controls". 4 of them can be
cusatomized to a certain extent. But there none where I really would
assign anything else.

Wrong direction IMHO.
If an application is written for usage with a TabletPC there has to be
a way to perform each and any operation without using any key.
It takes different thinking in so far.
And needs deeper thinking. Then for sure an alternative way of doing
things with a computer in tablet mode could be designed.

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Applaus!!!

But I only have three keys and a modifier key to work with for 6
total functions. Two are use up by page up and page down. One
for blanking the screen. One for forcing a rotation because my
Acer C300 has the same auto-rotate-way-too-often bug as many
other Acers. One for enter and one for escape. Tell me, which
should I give up because the ON developers decided to abandon a
feature they had billed as a major selling point in the previous
version.

There are many other ways to add functionality to a stylus tap.
You pretending that they don't exist and that pressing the
control key should be easy for anybody doesn't jive with the
whole tablet/stylus centric model that ON is supposedly built
around.

Lets take a look at all the ways of modifying a stylus tap:

Just the tap itself.
Tap-and-hold.
Double-tap.
Double-tap-and-hold.
Hold the stylus button and tap.
Hold the stylus button and tap-and-hold.
Hold the stylus button and double-tap.
Hold the stylus button and double-tap-and-hold.

I won't even mention that all of the above variations can also
be done with the eraser end because not all styluses have eraser
ends. Besides, that would make people think they would be
erasing things.

After doing any of the above the software would change the
cursor to indicate a special mode and then allow you to drag the
cursor and perform that special function.

All of the above can be done with one hand, using only the
stylus. Or you can require the user to use the other hand (which
may be needed to actually hold the tablet) to hold down a key
that may not be available on a Tablet PC in tablet mode. As a
developer I don't think I would waste much time deciding which
would be the best way to provide an extra function. Nor would I
waste much time defending someone else's bad decision. Yes, some
of the methods are not as "discoverable" as just tapping on the
screen and dragging. But that is what instructions are for. You
choose the most used functions and assign them to the most
discoverable or intuitive action and work your way down the
priority list.

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Why is everyone repeating the same things that were brought forth in
this thread weeks ago in order to show me that I am wrong with saying
the control key is an acceptable alternative?
I pointed out now at least twice today and yesterday that I have a bug
open on this issue to get this changed. Did everyone just not read
that???

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Why is everyone repeating the same things that were brought
forth in this thread weeks ago in order to show me that I am
wrong with saying the control key is an acceptable alternative?

Sorry, probably my fault to jump on the old thread.
But you said that using the Ctrl-key would be an acceptable
alternative. And you repetaed thatm and defended thsi idea. And IMO
it's not an acceptable alternative. So I said what I think in so far.

I pointed out now at least twice today and yesterday that I have
a bug open on this issue to get this changed. Did everyone just
not read that???

I did read it.
Even in the theraded sequence ;-)
But I obviously misunderstood what you meant with having "opened a
bug".

Pls accept my apologies for having misunderstood you and taken that
you would really think that a key on the keyboard might be a workable
solution.

Rainald

 

[srd]

This is unfair. Grant read presumptions into Patrick's comment that were
simply not present, not by any stretch of the imagination.. It was such a
gross distortion that I think it was disingenuous. Then you just assumed
Grant had a point, or worse, agreed with him. But maybe for you it
involves fine points of English.

Here is where Grant misrepresents what Patrick was saying:

"You pretending that they don't exist and that pressing the
control key should be easy for anybody doesn't jive with the
whole tablet/stylus centric model that ON is supposedly built
around."

This is what Patrick actually said: all of the comment that Grant was
addressing:

"My tablet still has a keyboard You could assign any of the tablet keys
to be 'control'."

Nothing about it being "acceptable." Putting in a bug report operationally
_defines_ *not* finding it "acceptable." Nothing about it being easy for
anyone. Simply a suggestion for some users who perhaps were not aware the
keys were interchangeable. I'm confident they exist. Usually one doesn't
find this kind of gutter polemic on the MS boards.

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Thanks.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Grant Robertson]

But honestly speaking: Are you really doing work with the pen when
your machine is in notebook mode?
Not too comfortable (at least on my HP tc1100 with the display not too
stable and the palm on the keyboard when clicking in the lower left
corner.

Actually, I have now gotten to where I mostly use my Tablet PC in
standard laptop mode but with the screen tilted way back. I prop it up on
something so that the hinge isn't taking all the pressure of my writing
on it all the time. There is a little bump in the center of the back, top
edge that I can catch on the edge of an upside down glass. One could
contrive something similar on any tablet by taking advantage of the fact
that the lid must be designed to latch in both directions.

I rarely use the touchpad or mouse any more. I find it quicker to just
pick up the stylus and tap where I want to click. Then I have the best of
both worlds. Naturally, I don't do this when I have my tablet in my lap.
But I find the lack of keyboard tolerable in slate mode because I usually
only want to do simple things like write in my journal or read something
while in slate mode.

Perhaps I would try to do more things in slate mode if there were more
functionality while in that mode but what the heck. You can't fight city
hall. I complain as much as I think will have some influence but I still
have to adapt to the real world as it is presented to me.

 

[Grant Robertson]

This is unfair. Grant read presumptions into Patrick's comment that were
simply not present, not by any stretch of the imagination.. It was such a
gross distortion that I think it was disingenuous. Then you just assumed
Grant had a point, or worse, agreed with him. But maybe for you it
involves fine points of English.

Here is where Grant misrepresents what Patrick was saying:

"You pretending that they don't exist and that pressing the
control key should be easy for anybody doesn't jive with the
whole tablet/stylus centric model that ON is supposedly built
around."

A) I think Patrick will live through the ordeal.

B) I read the messages in the order they are presented to me by my
newsreader. It is in threaded order not exact chronological order. I am
pretty sure I read at least two messages by Patrick defending the ctrl-
tap-slide method before I made my comments which were before I read
Patrick's mention of having entered a bug.

C) It's great that Patrick entered it as a bug.

D) I don't have the time to be disingenuous. I just call em as I see em
and move the heck on. I am often blunt but try not to be mean. I also
recognize that we are probably all adults and able to move past
misunderstandings.

E) I still think it sucks that I can't flip through pages just using the
stylus but I figure I have said all there is to say on the issue and can
now only hope for the best.

 

[Patrick Schmid]

Heard back from MS: "Thank you for the feedback, this issue has a
potentially large impact and will be evaluated for consideration beyond
the beta timeframe."
In plain English: This is MS's catch-all message for issues that they
recognize as such, but won't fix for 2007.

Patrick Schmid

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Thanks for your effort, Patrick.

Too bad!
I menawhile fell over quite a larger number of similar issues where
one is helpless without a keyboard.

This and the overall usage of the "task aerea" (sorry, don't know the
English term) instead of the space saving dialogs makes me think that
the develpoers' and Quality Assurance teams did not really base there
concepts and their tests on TabletPCs as a major field of concern.

Any responsable person being tied to exclsusively using a "slate"
would have stumbled over only too many areas where the concept goes
half way only [siiiigh]

Rainald