resource (material)

[tough1857]

Hello

I am trying to assign a resource to a task as follows:
Activity A (Formwork) - duration 8 days
Activity B (Reinforcement) linked as (A ff + 2days) duration 4 days
Activity C (Casting) linked as (B fs) duration 2 days
Activity D (Removal of formwork) linked as (C fs+ 14 edays) duration 3
days

Now I have assigned a resource (material) of 1500 sqm to A. This
resource is effectively locked up from day 1 of activity A till the
completion of D.

I have to crate a projection of total resource requirement, because
there are 4 separate parts requiring these activities that to, a number
of times.

Could you help me in this and tell me how to do it.

 

[Steve House]

Your problem may be in treating your resource as "material." The reason I
wonder about that is from your statement that the resource is "locked up
from day 1 of A to the completion of D." A true material resource would be
"locked up" forever onwards for all time starting with the beginning of A.
The reason is that a "material" is something that is either permanently
incorporated into the deliverable, ie, bricks for a wall, or used up doing
the task, such as fuel for a bulldozer. If the resource in question is an
inanimate object such as a tool that is used in certain tasks and then freed
up for other things once the tasks in question are done, it is a work
resource, not a material resource, and is scheduled in exactly the same
manner as a human worker. Your forms are exactly that - you can only cast
as much stuff as you have forms available. If you have the makings of 5
forms on hand, you can't have six casting tasks going on at once, only 5.
The 6th one would have to wait to start until one of the forms were free,
exactly like erecting a brick wall has to wait for the bricklayer to be free
from other tasks he's assigned to.

HTH

 

[tough1857]

Thanks Steve,

OK suppose i do assign formwork as work and not material, there are
following shortcomings.
1. When I say work, it is projected in %. I personally dont like the
analysed data to be in %. But this can be overcome. (is there a way to
replace % with units like sqm.)

2. Secondly, this resourse cannot be used elsewhere from the day
formwork is started till completion, further till two more activities
(rein and casting) are completed and removal is done after strength is
achieved. This strength acheiving duration is in edays. Now i dont
know, how to assign this resource, so that it is indicated as not
available till the abovesaid combination of normal working days (with
holidays) and edays.

Regards

 

[John]

Thanks Steve,

OK suppose i do assign formwork as work and not material, there are
following shortcomings.
1. When I say work, it is projected in %. I personally dont like the
analysed data to be in %. But this can be overcome. (is there a way to
replace % with units like sqm.)

2. Secondly, this resourse cannot be used elsewhere from the day
formwork is started till completion, further till two more activities
(rein and casting) are completed and removal is done after strength is
achieved. This strength acheiving duration is in edays. Now i dont
know, how to assign this resource, so that it is indicated as not
available till the abovesaid combination of normal working days (with
holidays) and edays.

Regards

tough,
It's interesting but there have been a couple other posts in the past
week dealing with questions on non-labor type resources. I think Steve
explained the concept of material versus labor resources so let me
address your issues.

1. The dimension on resource units is set under Tools/Options/Schedule
tab, "show assignment units as a:". In your case use decimal instead of
percent. And to get the label of "sqm" simply add it to the resource
name on the Resource Sheet (i.e. Formwork in sqm, or Formwork (sqm)).

2. There are various ways to handle commitment of the forms for the
whole period. One simple way is to assign the formwork resource to each
of the tasks A, B, C & D because that is really what you have. Another
method might be to set up a separate task for "formwork committed". You
could do it as a hammock task or simply give it a duration equal to the
complete span from the start of "A" to the finish of "D" and assign the
formwork resource to that task. Task "A" then becomes just the labor to
set the forms.

By the way, if you are not familiar with a hammock task, go to our MVP
website at: http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm, and take a look at FAQ
19 - Hammock Tasks.

Hope this helps.
John
Project MVP

 

[johnson]

I am using Hammock task " form work engaged" with its start date pasted
special from the start date of the form work task and its finish date as teh
finish date of the curing task. Form work material is assigned as work type
resource only in the hammock task.
I f u assign the form work in all tasks and do not have a FS relationship(
actually it does not have) ,the peak demand of the form work will increase (
which is not correct)
The only problem i find in the hammock task wit hits start and finish dates
pasted as link is the unstable nature of the link. For a 15 storied building
it takes almost 10 minutes for any changes to take effect due the pasted link.
Microsoft can suggest some improvement.

 

[John]

I am using Hammock task " form work engaged" with its start date pasted
special from the start date of the form work task and its finish date as teh
finish date of the curing task. Form work material is assigned as work type
resource only in the hammock task.
I f u assign the form work in all tasks and do not have a FS relationship(
actually it does not have) ,the peak demand of the form work will increase (
which is not correct)
The only problem i find in the hammock task wit hits start and finish dates
pasted as link is the unstable nature of the link. For a 15 storied building
it takes almost 10 minutes for any changes to take effect due the pasted link.
Microsoft can suggest some improvement.

Johnson,
Unfortunately one of the problems with paste links is that they are not
very stable or reliable and therefore we rarely recommend using them.
Nonetheless, at present they are the only way to create a hammock task
in Project. Whether this will be changed in future versions of Project,
I do not know.

I guess I'm a little lost with your comment about peak demand. The
scenario you showed in your original post has a logical sequence of
tasks, all of which have a finish-to-start relationship, some with
delays. And in that case, the peak units for the forms is equal across
all tasks. The only time the peak units for the forms goes to zero is
during the delay times. This can be accommodated by creating separate
tasks of 2 days and 14 edays respectively with the forms as the only
used resource. In other words, there are ways to make the assignment of
the forms resource do what you need without resorting to a hammock task.

John
Project MVP

 

[tough1857]

Thanks

I got the point for changing the percentage and lable part of this
advice
I also tried using the hammock task. It works out great. But there is a
problem. The calculated duration for this hammock task, after the
linking is done, shows a question mark. (eg. 15 days?) Does this
indicate a not so firm duration, an estimated time. Will it create any
problem in the analysis later on. Or did I commit a mistake?

Further to this, I woulding be using this for a 12 storied building
with reptitive casting cycles. If I create all these activities under a
heading (treating shuttering, reinf and concrete as a subtask, and then
copy this entire set and paste it in subsequent rows, would it relate
to the related tasks or would this link be related to the first cell,
that I had linked at the onset.

Regards

Tough

 

[Dave]

The question mark normally means that the duration is estimated. In
this case, you have set it by making it a hammock task so the fact that
the question mark remains is effectively a minor bug.

It should have no consequences for the rest of the plan. If you worry
about niceties like this, you could give the task a fixed duration (an
arbitrary one) before you hammock it. Setting the duration means that
the task is no longer considered to be estimated and so the application
removes the question mark.

Dave

 

[Mike Glen]

Hi Tough,

If you double-click on the task, in the Task Information dialog, General
tab, remove the tick in the Estimated box.

Mike Glen
MS Project MVP
See http://tinyurl.com/2xbhc for Project Tutorials

 

[John]

Thanks

I got the point for changing the percentage and lable part of this
advice
I also tried using the hammock task. It works out great. But there is a
problem. The calculated duration for this hammock task, after the
linking is done, shows a question mark. (eg. 15 days?) Does this
indicate a not so firm duration, an estimated time. Will it create any
problem in the analysis later on. Or did I commit a mistake?

Further to this, I woulding be using this for a 12 storied building
with reptitive casting cycles. If I create all these activities under a
heading (treating shuttering, reinf and concrete as a subtask, and then
copy this entire set and paste it in subsequent rows, would it relate
to the related tasks or would this link be related to the first cell,
that I had linked at the onset.

Regards

Tough

Tough,
Dave is correct in that the question mark behind the duration value will
have no impact on values or calculations although it is not a "bug" as
he indicated. Whether or not the question mark appears behind initial
duration values is determined by an option under Tools/Options/Schedule
tab, "new tasks have estimated durations". It is simply a reminder to
the user that until a definitive duration is entered for new tasks, the
initial value is estimated. But bottom line, ignore the question mark or
uncheck the option if you don't want the question mark to appear.

Do NOT copy and paste a task with paste links. Doing so will create a
linked mess that is sure to corrupt your file faster than you can poor
the concrete. Besides, I thought you said that you tried using a hammock
task and it took 10 minutes to calculate. Here's another tidbit about
using paste links. Years ago, (circa Project 4.x), I built a file with
multiple internal paste links. Each time I made a change I would get the
hourglass indicating that Project was calculating. After the hourglass
disappeared I assumed calculation was finished. Wrong! It turned out
that because of all the internal links the file was still being
calculated for several minutes (I could tell by the way the screen
refresh was flashing and some values kept changing). In other words, the
concert was over but the fat lady was still singing. Given this little
piece of information and your comment about the 10 minutes calculation
time, I'm surprised you still want to use hammock tasks. Nonetheless, if
you insist on using hammock tasks, you must create each one of them
independently. The base tasks can be copied and pasted but do it before
any links are set.

John
Project MVP

 

[tough1857]

Hi
Thanks for the detials on my earlier query. It really has given me a
lot of relief.
Now there is this new query which has been troubling me for quite some
time.

I have four tasks as under


ID Task Name Duration Start Finish Predecessors

5. Column 3d 01/12/06 04/12/06
6. Beam bottom 2d 04/12/06
05/12/06 5SS+2d

Now, the beam bottoms, in effect require 2 days and need to be started
after starting columns with a lag of 2 days. But at the same time, the
beam bottoms wont be completed till all columns are complete. On
conversely (in fact more correctly and realistically), the definition
of beam bottom can be as follows:

Start date: 2 days after columns start
Finish date: 1 day after all columns are completed
Duration: This would be co-related to the above said start and
finish date.

So, what the above predecessor indicates is just one definition. How do
I really define these two tasks. It is also relevant, later on during
tracking, because if the columns are delayed due to some reason, (or if
they start on time and take up more than 3 days) then the beam bottom
and column completion relation would not be indicated, which would
mislead me to believe that the beam bottoms can be completed on
baseline time in spite of columns taking more time (delayed finish
date)

I would really appreciate, if the broader picture be made clear to me
first and then followed by the finer intricacies (which indeed are
important in their own place). But then I personally like this approach
of whole to part.

Regards,

Tough

Thanks

I got the point for changing the percentage and lable part of this
advice
I also tried using the hammock task. It works out great. But there is a
problem. The calculated duration for this hammock task, after the
linking is done, shows a question mark. (eg. 15 days?) Does this
indicate a not so firm duration, an estimated time. Will it create any
problem in the analysis later on. Or did I commit a mistake?

Further to this, I woulding be using this for a 12 storied building
with reptitive casting cycles. If I create all these activities under a
heading (treating shuttering, reinf and concrete as a subtask, and then
copy this entire set and paste it in subsequent rows, would it relate
to the related tasks or would this link be related to the first cell,
that I had linked at the onset.

ToughTough,

Dave is correct in that the question mark behind the duration value will
have no impact on values or calculations although it is not a "bug" as
he indicated. Whether or not the question mark appears behind initial
duration values is determined by an option under Tools/Options/Schedule
tab, "new tasks have estimated durations". It is simply a reminder to
the user that until a definitive duration is entered for new tasks, the
initial value is estimated. But bottom line, ignore the question mark or
uncheck the option if you don't want the question mark to appear.

Do NOT copy and paste a task with paste links. Doing so will create a
linked mess that is sure to corrupt your file faster than you can poor
the concrete. Besides, I thought you said that you tried using a hammock
task and it took 10 minutes to calculate. Here's another tidbit about
using paste links. Years ago, (circa Project 4.x), I built a file with
multiple internal paste links. Each time I made a change I would get the
hourglass indicating that Project was calculating. After the hourglass
disappeared I assumed calculation was finished. Wrong! It turned out
that because of all the internal links the file was still being
calculated for several minutes (I could tell by the way the screen
refresh was flashing and some values kept changing). In other words, the
concert was over but the fat lady was still singing. Given this little
piece of information and your comment about the 10 minutes calculation
time, I'm surprised you still want to use hammock tasks. Nonetheless, if
you insist on using hammock tasks, you must create each one of them
independently. The base tasks can be copied and pasted but do it before
any links are set.

John
Project MVP

 

[Dave]

If what you mean is that beam bottom cannot physically start until two
days after column start, then you should indicate that with a SS+2d link
as indicated. The other element is more complex as you are asking
Project to recognise a relationship (not a linking one) between the two
activities that it can't know about. What you are effectively saying is
that whenever the duration of column changes, you want the duration of
beam to change accordingly. You could do this with VBA, but I have to
wonder if it is worth it. The actual relationship may be more complex
than initially meets the eye. For example, if column goes well and
finishes early, can beam bottom finish early, or is it always at least 2
days?

 

[Dave]

The presence of the question mark is not a bug, but I would suggest that
its appearance in the context described is. It is meant to show that
the task duration is estimated and consequently it should disappear
whatever method is used for setting the task duration, be it manual
entry or deriving it from other tasks as in the hammock process (unless
I suppose the duration of those tasks are themselves dependent on
estimated durations - but I bet it ain't that clever!).

 

[John]

Hi
Thanks for the detials on my earlier query. It really has given me a
lot of relief.
Now there is this new query which has been troubling me for quite some
time.

I have four tasks as under


ID Task Name Duration Start Finish Predecessors

5. Column 3d 01/12/06 04/12/06
6. Beam bottom 2d 04/12/06
05/12/06 5SS+2d

Now, the beam bottoms, in effect require 2 days and need to be started
after starting columns with a lag of 2 days. But at the same time, the
beam bottoms wont be completed till all columns are complete. On
conversely (in fact more correctly and realistically), the definition
of beam bottom can be as follows:

Start date: 2 days after columns start
Finish date: 1 day after all columns are completed
Duration: This would be co-related to the above said start and
finish date.

So, what the above predecessor indicates is just one definition. How do
I really define these two tasks. It is also relevant, later on during
tracking, because if the columns are delayed due to some reason, (or if
they start on time and take up more than 3 days) then the beam bottom
and column completion relation would not be indicated, which would
mislead me to believe that the beam bottoms can be completed on
baseline time in spite of columns taking more time (delayed finish
date)

I would really appreciate, if the broader picture be made clear to me
first and then followed by the finer intricacies (which indeed are
important in their own place). But then I personally like this approach
of whole to part.

Regards,

Tough

Tough,
First, you're welcome, I'm glad we were able to help with your initial
inquiry.

I think Dave gave an excellent explanation on your latest question.
Project is not designed to handle two way constraints, which is what you
are asking. It may be possible to use a modified hammock task, but then
we've been down that road previously. As Dave suggested, the
relationship between column and beam bottom could be addressed with VBA,
but like Dave, I question if it's worth the effort.

At least that is my synopsis given the limited information provided. If
there was more detail about the relationship between "column" and "beam
bottom", a more definitive answer might be possible. For example, what
exactly is "column"? It's not a task name because it does not describe
any action to be performed and tasks in Project are action verb based
descriptions of some activity to be performed as part of a larger
overall plan. Likewise with "beam bottom". Why the 2 day delay? Is it a
"must" start 2 days later or is it a "can" start 2 days later? Why must
the beam bottom finish after the column finish? Etc.

If you think about the above questions, it could well lead to an
intuitive answer that you are able to figure out on your own. We can
help you with what Project can and can not do, but you are the only one
who really understands your particular situation and how the activities
are interrelated.

John
Project MVP

 

[tough1857]

Hi Dave and John.

I would elaborate more, maybe with a different example.

The situation is as follows:

We have a basic columns, slab structure. Of this the columns and slabs
are to be cast independently. Further, each of these activities involve
form work, steel fixing and casting.
ID Task name Dur Start Finish Predecessor
7. Column 5d 01/12/06 05/12/06
8. Slab formwork 8d 03/12/06 11/12/06
7SS+2d


In totality there are 32 columns. Slab formwork work can start only
after an initial set of columns is complete, because the cast columns
are references for alignment for slab formwork.

But some basic activity of support structure for slab formwork can be
started. At the same time, this started support work on its own is of
no use, because it needs the columns (in turn the references) to be in
place in a reasonable short time after starting. So I say that after
columns have started and slab formwork starts with a lag of 2 days.

Moreover, till the entire columns are completed, the references for
entire slab formwork cannot be completed. So, in a way again the
supports for slab can be completed to a certain extent. But slab
formwork cannot be completed till all the column sets are completed.

So, in a case, where towards the end only two columns remain
incomplete, then slab formwork cannot be completed. But it does not
mean that 6 more days would be required to complete slab formwork, and
because of the supports to slab form, being in place, the activity of
slab formwork gets completed in 2 days after completion of columns.

In a way, this is important because while tracking, if I realize that
columns are delayed and only two are incomplete and if they (the
columns) take up 5 more days (finish on 10/12/06), then the slab
formwork needs to be correctly projected as delayed finish on 12/12/06,
taking 2 more days and an overall delay of 1 day in slab formwork.

Regards

Tough

Hi
Thanks for the detials on my earlier query. It really has given me a
lot of relief.
Now there is this new query which has been troubling me for quite some
time.

I have four tasks as under

ID Task Name Duration Start Finish Predecessors

5. Column 3d 01/12/06 04/12/06
6. Beam bottom 2d 04/12/06
05/12/06 5SS+2d

Now, the beam bottoms, in effect require 2 days and need to be started
after starting columns with a lag of 2 days. But at the same time, the
beam bottoms wont be completed till all columns are complete. On
conversely (in fact more correctly and realistically), the definition
of beam bottom can be as follows:

Start date: 2 days after columns start
Finish date: 1 day after all columns are completed
Duration: This would be co-related to the above said start and
finish date.

So, what the above predecessor indicates is just one definition. How do
I really define these two tasks. It is also relevant, later on during
tracking, because if the columns are delayed due to some reason, (or if
they start on time and take up more than 3 days) then the beam bottom
and column completion relation would not be indicated, which would
mislead me to believe that the beam bottoms can be completed on
baseline time in spite of columns taking more time (delayed finish
date)

I would really appreciate, if the broader picture be made clear to me
first and then followed by the finer intricacies (which indeed are
important in their own place). But then I personally like this approach
of whole to part.

ToughTough,

First, you're welcome, I'm glad we were able to help with your initial
inquiry.

I think Dave gave an excellent explanation on your latest question.
Project is not designed to handle two way constraints, which is what you
are asking. It may be possible to use a modified hammock task, but then
we've been down that road previously. As Dave suggested, the
relationship between column and beam bottom could be addressed with VBA,
but like Dave, I question if it's worth the effort.

At least that is my synopsis given the limited information provided. If
there was more detail about the relationship between "column" and "beam
bottom", a more definitive answer might be possible. For example, what
exactly is "column"? It's not a task name because it does not describe
any action to be performed and tasks in Project are action verb based
descriptions of some activity to be performed as part of a larger
overall plan. Likewise with "beam bottom". Why the 2 day delay? Is it a
"must" start 2 days later or is it a "can" start 2 days later? Why must
the beam bottom finish after the column finish? Etc.

If you think about the above questions, it could well lead to an
intuitive answer that you are able to figure out on your own. We can
help you with what Project can and can not do, but you are the only one
who really understands your particular situation and how the activities
are interrelated.

John
Project MVP

 

[Dave]

It seems that in order to model it the way you describe, you need to
introduce more activities.

It seems to me that your slab work consists of the following (these can
be linked FS under a summary activity slab):
- Pre-fabrication for slab
- Majority of slab work
- Slab finishing

Then the pre-fabrication work can start asap. However it can't finish
until a certain amount of work is done on the columns (it is not clear
from your post if you need to have a number of completed columns, or if
it is sufficient that work is sufficiently advanced on the production of
all columns).

What you actually seem to want is for the finish date of slab
pre-fabrication to be driven by some date part way along the column
activity. So it seems that under a column summary (linked FS) you need:
- Preliminary column production (not sure if these are complete columns
or progress against production of all of them from your post)
- Final column production

Now link column preliminary to slab pre-fab FF (plus a bit if you need)

Similarly link column column finalisation to slab finishing (plus a bit)

I would suggest that 'plus a bit' should be percentage based, not time
based as that is actually the factor that is actually driving the finish
date - the amount of work remaining not the time.

Now if the first piece of column work is delayed, so is the finishing of
the slab prefab and hence the rest of that work.

Similarly if column finishing is delayed, so is the slab finishing.

You can get gaps in either the effort on the two threads, but that is
probably realistic. If that bothers you, delete the FS links and use
hammock techniques.

Link the whole lot to start/finish milestones.

If the work on columns is linear in that the output of finished columns
is directlyr related to time, then a better break down might be produce
columns 1-5, 6-10 etc or something along those lines.

It does strike me that you are trying to plan excessive detail into a
task of less than a week, but I don't know your context. How often do
you record progress against this plan?

You do need to find a way of encapsulating the description of the slab
pre-fab and column prelim so that it is measurable whether or not they
are complete and to the quality standard.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Hi Dave and John.

I would elaborate more, maybe with a different example.

The situation is as follows:

We have a basic columns, slab structure. Of this the columns and slabs
are to be cast independently. Further, each of these activities involve
form work, steel fixing and casting.
ID Task name Dur Start Finish Predecessor
7. Column 5d 01/12/06 05/12/06
8. Slab formwork 8d 03/12/06 11/12/06
7SS+2d


In totality there are 32 columns. Slab formwork work can start only
after an initial set of columns is complete, because the cast columns
are references for alignment for slab formwork.

But some basic activity of support structure for slab formwork can be
started. At the same time, this started support work on its own is of
no use, because it needs the columns (in turn the references) to be in
place in a reasonable short time after starting. So I say that after
columns have started and slab formwork starts with a lag of 2 days.

Moreover, till the entire columns are completed, the references for
entire slab formwork cannot be completed. So, in a way again the
supports for slab can be completed to a certain extent. But slab
formwork cannot be completed till all the column sets are completed.

So, in a case, where towards the end only two columns remain
incomplete, then slab formwork cannot be completed. But it does not
mean that 6 more days would be required to complete slab formwork, and
because of the supports to slab form, being in place, the activity of
slab formwork gets completed in 2 days after completion of columns.

In a way, this is important because while tracking, if I realize that
columns are delayed and only two are incomplete and if they (the
columns) take up 5 more days (finish on 10/12/06), then the slab
formwork needs to be correctly projected as delayed finish on 12/12/06,
taking 2 more days and an overall delay of 1 day in slab formwork.

Regards

Tough

Hi
Thanks for the detials on my earlier query. It really has given me a
lot of relief.
Now there is this new query which has been troubling me for quite some
time.

I have four tasks as under

ID Task Name Duration Start Finish Predecessors

5. Column 3d 01/12/06 04/12/06
6. Beam bottom 2d 04/12/06
05/12/06 5SS+2d

Now, the beam bottoms, in effect require 2 days and need to be started
after starting columns with a lag of 2 days. But at the same time, the
beam bottoms wont be completed till all columns are complete. On
conversely (in fact more correctly and realistically), the definition
of beam bottom can be as follows:

Start date: 2 days after columns start
Finish date: 1 day after all columns are completed
Duration: This would be co-related to the above said start and
finish date.

So, what the above predecessor indicates is just one definition. How do
I really define these two tasks. It is also relevant, later on during
tracking, because if the columns are delayed due to some reason, (or if
they start on time and take up more than 3 days) then the beam bottom
and column completion relation would not be indicated, which would
mislead me to believe that the beam bottoms can be completed on
baseline time in spite of columns taking more time (delayed finish
date)

I would really appreciate, if the broader picture be made clear to me
first and then followed by the finer intricacies (which indeed are
important in their own place). But then I personally like this approach
of whole to part.

ToughTough,

First, you're welcome, I'm glad we were able to help with your initial
inquiry.

I think Dave gave an excellent explanation on your latest question.
Project is not designed to handle two way constraints, which is what you
are asking. It may be possible to use a modified hammock task, but then
we've been down that road previously. As Dave suggested, the
relationship between column and beam bottom could be addressed with VBA,
but like Dave, I question if it's worth the effort.

At least that is my synopsis given the limited information provided. If
there was more detail about the relationship between "column" and "beam
bottom", a more definitive answer might be possible. For example, what
exactly is "column"? It's not a task name because it does not describe
any action to be performed and tasks in Project are action verb based
descriptions of some activity to be performed as part of a larger
overall plan. Likewise with "beam bottom". Why the 2 day delay? Is it a
"must" start 2 days later or is it a "can" start 2 days later? Why must
the beam bottom finish after the column finish? Etc.

If you think about the above questions, it could well lead to an
intuitive answer that you are able to figure out on your own. We can
help you with what Project can and can not do, but you are the only one
who really understands your particular situation and how the activities
are interrelated.

John
Project MVP

 

[John]

Hi Dave and John.

I would elaborate more, maybe with a different example.

The situation is as follows:

We have a basic columns, slab structure. Of this the columns and slabs
are to be cast independently. Further, each of these activities involve
form work, steel fixing and casting.
ID Task name Dur Start Finish Predecessor
7. Column 5d 01/12/06 05/12/06
8. Slab formwork 8d 03/12/06 11/12/06
7SS+2d


In totality there are 32 columns. Slab formwork work can start only
after an initial set of columns is complete, because the cast columns
are references for alignment for slab formwork.

But some basic activity of support structure for slab formwork can be
started. At the same time, this started support work on its own is of
no use, because it needs the columns (in turn the references) to be in
place in a reasonable short time after starting. So I say that after
columns have started and slab formwork starts with a lag of 2 days.

Moreover, till the entire columns are completed, the references for
entire slab formwork cannot be completed. So, in a way again the
supports for slab can be completed to a certain extent. But slab
formwork cannot be completed till all the column sets are completed.

So, in a case, where towards the end only two columns remain
incomplete, then slab formwork cannot be completed. But it does not
mean that 6 more days would be required to complete slab formwork, and
because of the supports to slab form, being in place, the activity of
slab formwork gets completed in 2 days after completion of columns.

In a way, this is important because while tracking, if I realize that
columns are delayed and only two are incomplete and if they (the
columns) take up 5 more days (finish on 10/12/06), then the slab
formwork needs to be correctly projected as delayed finish on 12/12/06,
taking 2 more days and an overall delay of 1 day in slab formwork.

Regards

Tough

Tough,
First I read your expanded explanation, (which is much more informative
by the way), and then I read Dave's response. I agree with Dave 100
percent. The full sequence of activities you describe needs to be laid
out in multiple tasks and some with "preliminary part", "intermediate
part" and "finishing part". Trying to do your plan with just the basic
activities is not going to work - there are too many interdependencies.

If Dave's approach still doesn't get you there, I suggest the following.
Laid out in detail each and every activity and draw link lines showing
their relationships. In places where you end up with links going
backwards or conflicting with something, add additional subtasks as
necessary to alleviate the condition. Keep refining this plan until it
does what you need but doesn't get so detailed that it is unmanageable.

One last thought. When setting up a schedule plan the user needs to
strike a reasonable balance between not enough detail and too much
detail. I've seen some users try to do too little (i.e. too gross a
plan) and too much (i.e. killing level of detail) and either extreme
will result in a lousy, unmanageable plan.

John
Project MVP

Hi
Thanks for the detials on my earlier query. It really has given me a
lot of relief.
Now there is this new query which has been troubling me for quite some
time.

I have four tasks as under

ID Task Name Duration Start Finish
Predecessors

5. Column 3d 01/12/06
04/12/06
6. Beam bottom 2d 04/12/06
05/12/06 5SS+2d

Now, the beam bottoms, in effect require 2 days and need to be started
after starting columns with a lag of 2 days. But at the same time, the
beam bottoms wont be completed till all columns are complete. On
conversely (in fact more correctly and realistically), the definition
of beam bottom can be as follows:

Start date: 2 days after columns start
Finish date: 1 day after all columns are completed
Duration: This would be co-related to the above said start and
finish date.

So, what the above predecessor indicates is just one definition. How do
I really define these two tasks. It is also relevant, later on during
tracking, because if the columns are delayed due to some reason, (or if
they start on time and take up more than 3 days) then the beam bottom
and column completion relation would not be indicated, which would
mislead me to believe that the beam bottoms can be completed on
baseline time in spite of columns taking more time (delayed finish
date)

I would really appreciate, if the broader picture be made clear to me
first and then followed by the finer intricacies (which indeed are
important in their own place). But then I personally like this approach
of whole to part.

ToughTough,

First, you're welcome, I'm glad we were able to help with your initial
inquiry.

I think Dave gave an excellent explanation on your latest question.
Project is not designed to handle two way constraints, which is what you
are asking. It may be possible to use a modified hammock task, but then
we've been down that road previously. As Dave suggested, the
relationship between column and beam bottom could be addressed with VBA,
but like Dave, I question if it's worth the effort.

At least that is my synopsis given the limited information provided. If
there was more detail about the relationship between "column" and "beam
bottom", a more definitive answer might be possible. For example, what
exactly is "column"? It's not a task name because it does not describe
any action to be performed and tasks in Project are action verb based
descriptions of some activity to be performed as part of a larger
overall plan. Likewise with "beam bottom". Why the 2 day delay? Is it a
"must" start 2 days later or is it a "can" start 2 days later? Why must
the beam bottom finish after the column finish? Etc.

If you think about the above questions, it could well lead to an
intuitive answer that you are able to figure out on your own. We can
help you with what Project can and can not do, but you are the only one
who really understands your particular situation and how the activities
are interrelated.

John
Project MVP