Word 2003 VB IDE & VB2005

P

Perry

Pride? Hardly. Your reaction was amusing, however.
Sorry, you certainly sounded that way. (re-read your replies...)
But as stated in my previous msg, that's ok.
Selfishness.
Can you explain to me what selfnishness means to you, when I'm only
expressing
my opinion and note (re-read my first posting to OP...)
in which I've even acknowledged your concerns.
So what's selfnishness?

Let's look it at it from a different angle.
So you're good at doing an old trick, but someone presents a new one.
What's wrong with trying out the new one?
What's wrong with investigating progress? What's wrong with admitting that
the new trick
contains techniques you will have to learn. What's wrong with admitting that
you have to learn?
What is selfnishness?

Karl, actually I don't like discussions in newsgroups if it doesn't
contribute to
the benefit of others.
So, if you'd like to wrap this up, you can continue our (so it appears)
personal conversation
via email.

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
K

Karl E. Peterson

Perry said:
Sorry, you certainly sounded that way. (re-read your replies...)

That right? So you equate a "smiley" with pride, rather than bemusement or good
humor? That's an interesting analogy from one who's already demonstrated strong
inner-directedness inclinations.
But as stated in my previous msg, that's ok.

Whatever. I'd say, "mighty big of you," but your lack of sarcasm-detection
capability would make it pointless.
Can you explain to me what selfnishness means to you, when I'm only
expressing my opinion and note (re-read my first posting to OP...)
in which I've even acknowledged your concerns.
So what's selfnishness?

If "the richness of the IDE" is anywhere near a prime criterion for choosing what
*language* is best-suited to a given task, there's an issue with objectivity.
Karl, actually I don't like discussions in newsgroups if it doesn't
contribute to the benefit of others.

Your reasoning is misleading, and has the potential for harm.
So, if you'd like to wrap this up, you can continue our (so it appears)
personal conversation via email.

I'll correct public misguidance in public, thanks.
 
P

Perry

Whatever. I'd say, "mighty big of you," but your lack of
sarcasm-detection capability would make it pointless.

Actually, I'm beginning to like this conversation...
Isn't this a typical case of "the pot calling the ...." bla

So y're the type of man who screams around and expecting other people to
understand your "intellectual twitter twatter". (the smileys)
That is pointless indeed :))

<vbg>
actually
LOL

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
P

Perry

But at least others saw both sides.
You got that right!

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
C

CS Hayes

Actually, I see both sides

1) Developers of VB6 are getting the short end of the stick because their
language is being phased out. Especially those with a big investment in it.

2) VB is... Microsofts product, and sadly enough, it's their prerogative to
do with it as they wish even if it loses customers. If Microsoft wants to
lose customers, hurrah for Linux and others.
--
Chris Hayes
Still a beginner (only 12 years)


Perry said:
But at least others saw both sides.
You got that right!

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
P

Perry

Hi CS Hayes,
1) Developers of VB6 are ... etc. True!

2) VB is... Mirosoft ...lose customers ... etc
True again.

Websphere (Java) used to be an important player for multi tier enterprise
banking apps.
Some large international banks however, now have introduced a (.NET) VS Team
Performance Server
(test)domain...
International IT companies, like Avenade, ie. the joint venture between
Accenture (the system integrator) and MSFT, hired .NET developers by the
dozens (!) when the company started up, just to be able to respond to their
customers needs.

And these are some observations of what's happening out there.

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE



CS Hayes said:
Actually, I see both sides

1) Developers of VB6 are getting the short end of the stick because their
language is being phased out. Especially those with a big investment in
it.

2) VB is... Microsofts product, and sadly enough, it's their prerogative
to
do with it as they wish even if it loses customers. If Microsoft wants to
lose customers, hurrah for Linux and others.
 
J

Jonathan West

old man said:
Hi,

I don't like disagreeing with a Word MVP but you may be doing the
equivalent
of building a great horseshoe just when cars are being widely introduced.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I don't regard myself as
being infallible, and in fact I learn new stuff about Word all the time, in
many cases from the experiences of others here on the Word groups. Don't
hesitate to disagree with me if you think I'm wrong.
Microsoft is very commited to .Net and VSTO and finally the development
environment for Word is as good as the one for Excel (the Word one was
always
1-5 years behind). The Office Object model still reflects a long product
history (so it is rather unusual) but it is much better and if you want to
develop software for the long (sic) run use VSTO and .Net. Its much harder
for VBA programmers to get but it is truly object oriented and you get
access
to the CLR and the .Net libraries.

There are various problems with that. I'll describe each one in turn. They
may not be applicable in all cases, but they need to be considered when
making an informed decision.

1. The Office object model is COM-based, and VBA works in-process without
COM-NET interworking. Performance therefore tends to be better when using
VBA.

2. I hope never to hear that hoary old jibe about VBA programmers being
unable to understand object-orientation. When presenting an argument, it is
best not to insult the intelligence of those you disagree with.

3. There are severe problems with deploying VSTO add-ins. The MVPs who have
been attempting it recently have been screaming at Microsoft about it, and
the facilities for doing so are in my opinion thoroughly inadequate still.

4. If your application is primarily controlling Word documents, then the
primary need is for efficient access to the Word object model. Access to the
..NET framework is of much lesser importance, and any advantages of using
VB.NET are correspondingly reduced.

5. The latest VSTO only works with Office 2007. The previous (more limited)
one only worked with Office 2003. if you want an application to support
multiple versions of Office, then you need to use VBA. About 40% of my
customers still use Office 2000 or Office XP, and my VBA library code works
unmodified in all versions of Office from 2000 onwards. Because Microsoft is
still refining the interface between .NET and Office in successive versions
of VSTO, the kind of version independence achieved by VBA is unlikely to be
matched by VSTO any time soon, which means that coe may have to be rewritten
in part every time you change version of Office, Visual Studio or VSTO.

6. I'm not at all convinced of the long-term commitment Microsoft has to
VB.NET. Public statements by senior people in Microsoft suggest to me that
Microsoft makes no distinction between a language and a platform, and that
when a platform changes, the language inevitably must as well. The idea that
a high-level language is something that insulates your code from the effects
of changes in platform is something which seems to have been forgotten in
Microsoft. Therefore when the successor to .NET comes along (and of course,
it will eventually) unless Microsoft has changed its mind, VB.NET code will
end up being as obsolete as VB6 code has become. Also, it is worth noting
that Microsoft was publicly thoroughly committed to the future of FoxPro,
until the day it announced the product would be discontinued.

This is a very emotional issue for users who have learned and pushed VBA
to

The problem is not about having learned VBA. It is that there is a lot of
VBA about, and Microsoft cannot remove support for it without causing all
companies that have VBA code they rely on to delay, perhaps permanantly,
their plans to upgrade to a newer version of Office. As Office makes up
something like a third of Microsoft's total revenue, and corporate sales
form the bulk of that, Microsoft dare not mess with VBA. It will be around
for a while. It is worth noting that three versions of Office have been
released since VB.NET came out, and they all still have VBA. That suggests
that, whatever the Visual Studio people may be saying about Microsoft's
commitment to all things .NET, the Office people are being somewhat more
cautious and pragmatic about it.
places no one ever anticipated but VSTO is the way to go. I don't want to
start a flame war and I have the greatest respect for the VBA experts on
this
site but that is the way it is.

If you expect flames from me, I fear you will be disappointed. I'm
interested solely in the truth of the matter, and I have an interest in
making sure I provide the best possible service for my own customers. That
means using whatever technology is best for the purpose, not necessarily
what is the latest thing being pushed by Microsoft.


--
Regards
Jonathan West - Word MVP
www.intelligentdocuments.co.uk
Please reply to the newsgroup
Keep your VBA code safe, sign the ClassicVB petition www.classicvb.org
 
J

Jonathan West

Perry said:
Nope, correctomundo

Only InfoPath 2007 ships with VB.net IDE.
I hope VB.net IDE will ship with SR1 or SR2 of Office 2007.

No chance. That kind of additional feature has never shipped in a service
pack before. VB.NET syntax can't easily be grafted into the internal layout
of templates to replace VBA for reasons of backwards compatibility, and the
VB.NET IDE can't be made available with VBA as the language being edited,
unless the underlying code for the editor were fundamentally changed. That
is because the Visual Studio.NET IDE makes certain assumptions concerning
the syntax of the languages it supports, and VBA doesn't conform to certain
of those assumptions.

I've noticed some apprehension among VBA expert colleagues here in
Holland.

Justifiably in my view
I'm trying to convince them into investing in VB.net. My message is
finally getting through to
them but only after having showed them apps I developed and demonstrating
the richness of the IDE.

The IDE is just one aspect of productivity. Another is performance of the
completed application, another is the time and effort necessary to create a
deployment package. A further aspect is the extent to which the IDE is
integrated into the object model of the application you are automating.
True.
But, think about:
Ok, as a beginner you would need to invest in VBA 6.5 all the same, right?

VBA is not going to disappear any time soon, unless Microsoft is going to
commit financial suicide by kissing goodbye to about a third of its revenue.
Why not use the effort to learn VB.net from scratch, I wonder?

The principles involved in programming are much the same, and sound
programming techniques can be taught and learned in any language.
As a beginner, it will take some effort (courses, courses and courses) but
if you have some affinity with programming
and your MS Word knowledge (I mean power user knowledge and not
programming knowledge) is good, why not skip the VBA 6.5 step
and jump right into VB.net?

I know of one community college which made the jump from doing a programming
course in VB6 to VB.NET, found themselves after a year with radically
reduced student numbers and declining pass-rates, and have changed tack and
now base the course on VBA using Word, Excel and Access.

I'm not suggesting that VB2005 is inappropriate for any programming task.
However, I think it is equally incorrect to write off VBA as inappropriate
because of its supposed outdatedness.


--
Regards
Jonathan West - Word MVP
www.intelligentdocuments.co.uk
Please reply to the newsgroup
Keep your VBA code safe, sign the ClassicVB petition www.classicvb.org
 
P

Perry

However, I think it is equally incorrect to write off VBA as inappropriate
because of its supposed outdatedness.

Whose words were these? Be it inappropriate or be it outdated ?
Me?
Can you cite me ?
The IDE is just one aspect of productivity. True

Another is performance of the completed application, another is the time
and effort necessary to create a deployment package.

I missed this aspect when porting VB projects to VB.net.
Hmm, I'd be interested to learn what aspects of VB.net apps could cause this
performance loss.
A further aspect is the extent to which the IDE is integrated into the
object model of the application you are automating.

We will always find workarounds for shortcomings in out-of-the-box tooling
.... Of all people, you should know.

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
J

Jonathan West

Perry said:
Whose words were these? Be it inappropriate or be it outdated ?
Me?
Can you cite me ?

You were suggesting that the OP should skip learning VBA and go straight
into VB.NET, based on your opinion of the richness of the IDE. The
implication was that the IDE (and perhaps other aspects) of VBA was
inferior, and being an older system, VBA was outdated in comparison to
VB.NET. Did I get that wrong?
I missed this aspect when porting VB projects to VB.net.
Hmm, I'd be interested to learn what aspects of VB.net apps could cause
this performance loss.

I explained that in another post. No need to repeat myself.
We will always find workarounds for shortcomings in out-of-the-box tooling
... Of all people, you should know.

Of course, I do know - and if we are going to compare IDEs for productivity,
then we would need to consider what add-ins are available for both IDEs that
enable productivity improvements if we are to come to a fully informed
decision. I use several add-ins for the VBA IDE, some free, some commercial.


--
Regards
Jonathan West - Word MVP
www.intelligentdocuments.co.uk
Please reply to the newsgroup
Keep your VBA code safe, sign the ClassicVB petition www.classicvb.org
 
P

Perry

VB.NET. Did I get that wrong?

You got that wrong.
In saying so, hope that I didn't hurt yr feelings if nevertheless you
perceived it that way.
If I recollect correctly, I was suggesting that to OP rather than
disqualifying VBA.
I explained that in another post. No need to repeat myself.

Are you refering to intellisense ease ?
The information can be collected elsewhere. If the ease of intellisense
isn't coming your way, msdn2 library
will come to the rescue, and the young VB.net developers, they start to
know the way...

Everything's online now ...
It can't be compared to the days where object models were the sole domain of
the experts.
The youngsters? One way or the other, they get their information, and know
where to find it, believe me!


--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
P

Perry

Another is performance of the completed application

Still sincerely curious and actually very interested in what could cause a
..NET application to (possibly) loose performance.


--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
J

Jay Freedman

Perry said:
Still sincerely curious and actually very interested in what could
cause a .NET application to (possibly) loose performance.

I think Jonathan was referring to the requirements to interface .Net to COM
and to automate Word from an out-of-process executable, neither of which
apply to a VBA app running in-process.

The other side of that argument, of course, is that external apps can be
compiled and may run hundreds of times faster than equivalent interpreted
VBA code.

The overall application performance will depend on the balance between those
factors. That in turn depends on exactly what the application is doing, how
much data it's manipulating, and what algorithms you choose.

I'd love to see a series of benchmarks comparing VBA, VB6, and VB.Net for
various kinds of Word add-in apps. It would probably take months just to
agree what kinds of apps to study. :)

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.
 
P

Perry

I think Jonathan was referring to the requirements to interface .Net to
COM and to automate Word from an out-of-process executable, neither of
which apply to a VBA app running in-process.

Just read it. (Was hosted in the other thread.)

True.
Because of the COM wrappers still being a PItA and not a regular library.
But -like the AD interface- the Office interface will be accessible as a
regular library.
And by the way, if it doesn't, the PIA's will be ok; as long as they're
reliable and represent the automation server to it's full extend.
When it comes to VB apps, the switch to .NET (note: this my personal
choice/comfort) has already taken place.
At the moment, for Office it still is VBA but it will move to VB2005 (be it
VSTO, VSTA or
VB.NET with a regular Office library incorporated)
It's like moving from Pascal to Delphi, or from WordBasic to VBA ...
Been there, done that ... didn't we?
The other side of that argument, of course, is that external apps can be
compiled and may run hundreds of times faster than equivalent interpreted
VBA code.

Hmm, depends on the situation ...
I'd love to see a series of benchmarks comparing VBA, VB6, and VB.Net for
various kinds of Word add-in apps. It would probably take months just to
agree what kinds of apps to study. :)

Here's a wise statement!
Indeed.
The number of sites with VB classic/VB.net equivalents is growing ...

In case I need to emphasize my point of view (or my point):
It wasn't a (by all means) a disqualification of VB(A)
I was responding to OP sharing (some personal) experience,
as that was what OP initially asked for.
For all I know, my initial postings were of that extend.

--
Krgrds,
Perry

System:
Vista/Office Ultimate
VS2005/VSTO2005 SE
 
C

Cindy M.

Hi Jonathan,
5. The latest VSTO only works with Office 2007. The previous (more limited)
one only worked with Office 2003.
Correction:

The latest version of VSTO (2005 SE, for Add-ins) works with both 2003 and
2007. And people have been able to coerce the 2003 add-ins to work with
earlier versions

VSTO 2005 document-level customizations can only be designed against
Word/Excel 2003. But they will run with Office 2007.

The Office 2007 document-level customizations aren't even in beta yet
(although that's getting close) and will be part of "Orcas". Given the radical
change in file format and the different direction MSFT is taking with Word and
Office, it shouldn't surprise that 2007 VSTO projects won't go backwards to
earlier versions.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 17 2005)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :)
 

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