Attn: xsvtoys - Groove Alternatives - http://collanos.com, moodle.org

[sbmack7]

xsvtoys,

I am the original poster of the question about the commitment to
Groove development by Microsoft. From the low level of activity on
this newsgroup and on Groove related topics on the Microsoft site, I
think you can stick a fork in Groove - it's cooked.

Collanos is not totally there yet, but at least they are still
trying. And there is much more user activity pinging their website
which tells me they still have a good development vibe. There is also
an open-source educational product called Moodle that could be
"Grooved". Both of these products are free. Collanos even provides
the relay service for free. (Uh oh, Microsoft may buy them next.)

The problem with open source is that because it is open source, there
are always a lot of loose ends in the application. And without
coherent collaboration, there is no coordinating oversight to tie them
together. Moodle has a thousand plug-ins. But about 70% of them are
only half-baked. However, Moodle does have enough core functionality
to act as a collaboration platform for small business groups.

And the problem with Microsoft is that many active, lone-wolf
developers just don't like the company. So where a lot of creative
energy is generated by developers of Firefox plug-ins, Microsoft has
to pay developers to augment its applications. And apparently, MS
does not want to pay for developers to augment Groove. So at this
point, people like us are caught in the middle.

SteveM

 

[Don]

keep an eye out on this...still in dev though -

http://miragroupware.org/

MS needs to get their rear-end in gear before all the small businesses jump
ship to something else.

 

[xsvtoys]

A key functionality I need is for offline access to all information for all
users. I don't believe that Moodle will do this, although I could be wrong.

Collanos looks like they have been doing some more work recently. But the
lack of any calendar function at all is really a pain. I need a shared
calendar that is available OFFLINE (therefore, NOT Google calendar and the
like).

Mira looks promising, but is still very early in development and no way to
tell when it might be usable. Unfortunately, I just can't take the time or
risk to try alpha versions, and maybe not even beta versions.

Still limping along on Groove 3.1. It does work, but I have too many users
on trial versions which limits total functionality. I can't (easily) purchase
them 3.1 licenses, and I don't really want to migrate the whole system to
Groove 2007, because as I have posted elsewhere, 2007 offers not a SINGLE
improvement or advantage versus 3.1 (for us), not one. Therefore I cannot
justify spending the money.

It is frustrating to be so close to having a really good usable system, yet,
so far....

 

[sbmack7]

A key functionality I need is for offline access to all information for all
users. I don't believe that Moodle will do this, although I could be wrong.

Collanos looks like they have been doing some more work recently. But the
lack of any calendar function at all is really a pain. I need a shared
calendar that is available OFFLINE (therefore, NOT Google calendar and the
like).

Mira looks promising, but is still very early in development and no way to
tell when it might be usable. Unfortunately, I just can't take the time or
risk to try alpha versions, and maybe not even beta versions.

Still limping along on Groove 3.1. It does work, but I have too many users
on trial versions which limits total functionality. I can't (easily) purchase
them 3.1 licenses, and I don't really want to migrate the whole system to
Groove 2007, because as I have posted elsewhere, 2007 offers not a SINGLE
improvement or advantage versus 3.1 (for us), not one. Therefore I cannot
justify spending the money.

It is frustrating to be so close to having a really good usable system, yet,
so far....

See Zoho, zoho.com.

That product is quickly becoming feature rich.

SteveM

 

[xsvtoys]

I may be mistaken, but Zoho appears to be the sort of online-only tool that
is commonly available, like Google Docs, Office Live and probably may others.
I prefer to stay away from these if it all possible. It is very much
preferable for us to have off-line access for all information. And with those
locally-stored files constantly and automatically updated with no effort on
the scattered users (peer to peer sharing model). This is something that
Groove does very well, and I am still looking for something that will achieve
that goal.

Yes you can say the internet is "everywhere" now, but the fact is, we deal
with a number of situations where a live internet connection is not
immediately available, and we need immediate access to our stored file
system.

 

[sbmack7]

I may be mistaken, but Zoho appears to be the sort of online-only tool that
is commonly available, like Google Docs, Office Live and probably may others.
I prefer to stay away from these if it all possible. It is very much
preferable for us to have off-line access for all information. And with those
locally-stored files constantly and automatically updated with no effort on
the scattered users (peer to peer sharing model). This is something that
Groove does very well, and I am still looking for something that will achieve
that goal.

Yes you can say the internet is "everywhere" now, but the fact is, we deal
with a number of situations where a live internet connection is not
immediately available, and we need immediate access to our stored file
system.

Zoho has an Offline feature that uses Google Gears for managing
downloads. I downloaded Gears but have not tried the service.

If your desires are absolute musts in every context, so you have no
trade space, then you're outta luck. Although that simplifies
decision making because,

"When there are no alternatives, there is no problem."

SteveM

 

[xsvtoys]

:

"When there are no alternatives, there is no problem."

True, but I sure would like to see the alternatives. I cannot believe that
we are unique in our needs, there must be many others who need to do the same
things we need to do.

Cloud computing just doesn't sound very appealling - too dependent on live
internet connectivity. And Google Gears is another one of those new techs
that is somewhat iffy. They cannot even get a calendar functioning well that
will work offline.

 

[sbmack7]

True, but I sure would like to see the alternatives. I cannot believe that
we are unique in our needs, there must be many others who need to do the same
things we need to do.

Cloud computing just doesn't sound very appealling - too dependent on live
internet connectivity. And Google Gears is another one of those new techs
that is somewhat iffy. They cannot even get a calendar functioning well that
will work offline.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. But you are indeed "musting"
everything. If pigs had wings they could fly.

Are there any elements of the Zoho-Google mashup that are superior to
Groove? If yes, are the differentiable capabilities tradeable? If
they are, then get your people together and examine the pros and cons
of each. If not and you are locked onto an ideal Groove, then you are
fixated on an illusion (currently). Which is probably not a good way
to spend your time.

SteveM

 

[xsvtoys]

Fair enough, and I am open to discuss these things. But, consider my point of
view. I have a bunch or remotely scattered users. I need them to have all of
the latest information (files), which is constantly updated (as often as
daily), WITH LOCAL OFFLINE ACCESS (critical). Few of them have any reasonable
degree of computer literacy (typical end users).

With a system like Groove, here is how it is accomplished:

1. Install Groove
2. Get Workspace
3. Connect to the internet periodically.

DONE. That is all they have to do. And steps 1 and 2 only happen once! All I
have to do is keep the master workspace updated. Everything else happens
automatically. No one has to do anything, no one has to think.

If I look at a system like you are proposing, I have to sort out how to get
all of the same (or similar) functionality, then, I have to train all of the
users to work with it. For each and every user that can't figure it out or
needs help, more of my time is consumed. I don't have time to spare

I understand what it is you are saying, but I say back to you: If we HAVE
the system that does do the job, that is, Groove, why then is it that we
cannot continue to have it, and improve it? Why is it unreasonable of me to
like something that already exists? Its not like I am stuck on something that
is pie in the sky or vaporware.

The answer right now: Because Microsoft bought it, and they are choking it.
And apparently, its not so simple of a solution to implement from a technical
point of view. Otherwise, others would jump in the fill the gap. They are
trying (Collanos, etc) but none have reached the level that Groove is at as
of yet.

Eventually, I may need to consider a Zoho type of model, and spend some time
going through it to see what I can do. But for now, the Groove system we have
in place is going along pretty well. I'm just not sure how long it will last.

 

[sbmack7]

Fair enough, and I am open to discuss these things. But, consider my point of
view. I have a bunch or remotely scattered users. I need them to have allof
the latest information (files), which is constantly updated (as often as
daily), WITH LOCAL OFFLINE ACCESS (critical). Few of them have any reasonable
degree of computer literacy (typical end users).

With a system like Groove, here is how it is accomplished:

1. Install Groove
2. Get Workspace
3. Connect to the internet periodically.

DONE. That is all they have to do. And steps 1 and 2 only happen once! All I
have to do is keep the master workspace updated. Everything else happens
automatically. No one has to do anything, no one has to think.

If I look at a system like you are proposing, I have to sort out how to get
all of the same (or similar) functionality, then, I have to train all of the
users to work with it. For each and every user that can't figure it out or
needs help, more of my time is consumed. I don't have time to spare

 I understand what it is you are saying, but I say back to you: If we HAVE
the system that does do the job, that is, Groove, why then is it that we
cannot continue to have it, and improve it? Why is it unreasonable of me to
like something that already exists? Its not like I am stuck on something that
is pie in the sky or vaporware.

The answer right now: Because Microsoft bought it, and they are choking it.
And apparently, its not so simple of a solution to implement from a technical
point of view. Otherwise, others would jump in the fill the gap. They are
trying (Collanos, etc) but none have reached the level that Groove is at as
of yet.

Eventually, I may need to consider a Zoho type of model, and spend some time
going through it to see what I can do. But for now, the Groove system we have
in place is going along pretty well. I'm just not sure how long it will last.

You sort of lost me here. Now I'm not sure if you have need or just
wanted to rant.

Ranting's fine by me. Suggest you contact MS directly if you want to
link your bile to any hoped for action on their part.

And why push back at me about Zoho? I'm not trying to sell anything.
I do something called "Decision Management" among other things in
which I employ tools and techniques to help clients get by sticking
points in their decision processes.

Your little kvetch about the level of effort to transition to Zoho is
something I see all the time. So no offense. It's human nature.
When my client calms down after kvetching, I ask him to take stock and
do a rough estimate of the real level of effort to change (Cons) and
then compare those in any strategic benefits (Pros). Because that's
where the real trade is assuming the functionality swap is almost
neutral. I.e., Is the pricing and upside development profile for Zoho
(or something) worth the level of effort to make the transition away
from Groove given it's pricing and what you surmise to be its
development trajectory?

That's pretty much it. If you spin yourself up on the transition
effort but then don't do the relax and review, you have no
alternatives. So you not so sublimely have not problems.

Incidentally, somebody mentioned another peer to perr product before
called mindquarry. German. Open source, but they went out of
business. But you can still grab the software. Here's a link that
explains it:

http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/mindquarry_guide

SteveM

P.S. Please don't complain to me about what mindquarry doesn't do
either.