Grammar check still impossible

[sthan]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Corentin, John,

I did everything you suggested here : <a href="John McGhie, "Grammar check impossible in french" #39, 17 Apr 2009 7:37 pm </?13@@.59b70f51/38>">John McGhie, "Grammar check impossible in french" #39, 17 Apr 2009 7:37 pm</a>

"First: Download and re-apply the latest Apple OS X Combo Update from here:
<http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=search&src=support_site.kbase&fac=Dow>
nloads&q=Mac%20OS%20X%20Combo
Test now: that may fix it. If not: I am picking that one of the components
of your software has gotten out of synch with the others.
1) Quit all Microsoft applications.
Run the Remove Office utility. You must run Remove Office, or you'll make
the problem worse! And Office must be installed WHEN you run it, otherwise
Remove Office will do nothing because it can't find what it's looking for.
2) Run Remove Office TWICE to make sure it finds everything. Remove Office
is in a folder on your CD, and is also in a folder in your Office 2008
Application folder.
3) Track down all instances of pre-2008 Normal template on your computer,
and drag them to your desktop. The file is called simply "Normal" and has
no extension.
4) Find and drag the file Normal.dotm to your desktop. Unless you have
moved it, it should be in
/Users/ ~ /Library/Application Support/Microsoft/Office/User Templates/
5) If the following files exist, Remove or rename them:
~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Word Settings (10)
~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Word Settings (11)
User/Library/Preferences/com.Microsoft.Word.plist
User/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Office 2008 (the whole folder!)
Then Repair Permissions with Disk Utility.
Then re-install, and reapply the 12.1.0 and 12.1.5 updates, in that order.
Repair permissions again, and it should work."

So :
I even erased totally my HD and reinstalled everything,
notably Office.
Still, grammar check quits after 5 or 6 phrases.
;-)))
Pure Microsoft, I guess…

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Sthan:

OK, that should certainly have fixed the issue, but please let me just ask
some follow-up questions to make sure we have covered all the bases...

"How" did you re-install Office? (Exactly: I need detail here if I am to be
helpful...)

Did you ALSO re-apply the updates? One of the updates is essential ‹
without it, the French proofing tools won't run at all.

HOW did you re-install Apple OS X?

Did you ALSO apply all of the Apple updates?

Again, without the updates, it won't work.

Any attempt to "copy" or "restore" the Operating System or Microsoft Office
from a backup will simply copy the problem.

Please respond and we'll see if we can take it further.

It's not "Pure Microsoft" ‹ the product runs fine in English for me, and
fine in French for Corentin. But the updates are essential, and it is
essential to also ensure that you have a matched set ‹ install the OS from
the CD and upgrade it all the way up with the Apple updates, then install
Office from the CD and upgrade it to the latest level with the Microsoft
updates.

It is possible to suffer this problem if there are problems in the document.
And it is possible to suffer this problem if there are problems in the
custom dictionary.

It is also possible that you have discovered a completely new variation that
we have not seen before.

The more information you can give us, and the more detailed that information
is, the more likely we can help you, or ask Microsoft to put out a patch for
the problem.

However, you should know that taking "shots" at anyone is VERY
counter-productive to your cause Microsoft staff are human beings
first, and so are we. You may decide to reflect for a moment on the fact
that every one of us, including the Microsoft staff, go to work each day to
do a good job, pay off the house and feed our kids. That job is getting
harder and harder as companies lay off staff. They don't reduce the amount
of work to be done, they simply expect the same work done by less people.
When we leave the office, we hope to at least be treated with respect for
our efforts.

So: When you say things like "Typical Microsoft" ‹ they KNOW that's not
true. But it is very annoying. Now: Microsoft has already sold your copy
of Office. They already have your money. And they're fully committed to
working on the next version.

If you annoy them... Well, they'd be only human if they quietly slipped your
issue into the "Pending" file. And left it there...

So if you want this issue resolved, stay with us, and stay nice... Of
course, it makes no difference to anyone but you if you decide to do
something different

Cheers

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Corentin, John,

I did everything you suggested here : <a href="John McGhie, "Grammar check
impossible in french" #39, 17 Apr 2009 7:37 pm </?13@@.59b70f51/38>">John
McGhie, "Grammar check impossible in french" #39, 17 Apr 2009 7:37 pm</a>

"First: Download and re-apply the latest Apple OS X Combo Update from here:

<http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=search&src=support_site.kbase&fac=Dow>
nloads&q=Mac%20OS%20X%20Combo
Test now: that may fix it. If not: I am picking that one of the components
of your software has gotten out of synch with the others.
1) Quit all Microsoft applications.
Run the Remove Office utility. You must run Remove Office, or you'll make
the problem worse! And Office must be installed WHEN you run it, otherwise
Remove Office will do nothing because it can't find what it's looking for.
2) Run Remove Office TWICE to make sure it finds everything. Remove Office
is in a folder on your CD, and is also in a folder in your Office 2008
Application folder.
3) Track down all instances of pre-2008 Normal template on your computer,
and drag them to your desktop. The file is called simply "Normal" and has
no extension.
4) Find and drag the file Normal.dotm to your desktop. Unless you have
moved it, it should be in
/Users/ ~ /Library/Application Support/Microsoft/Office/User Templates/
5) If the following files exist, Remove or rename them:
~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Word Settings (10)
~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Word Settings (11)
User/Library/Preferences/com.Microsoft.Word.plist
User/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Office 2008 (the whole folder!)
Then Repair Permissions with Disk Utility.
Then re-install, and reapply the 12.1.0 and 12.1.5 updates, in that order.
Repair permissions again, and it should work."

So :
I even erased totally my HD and reinstalled everything,
notably Office.
Still, grammar check quits after 5 or 6 phrases.
;-)))
Pure Microsoft, I guess…

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[sthan]

John, thank you for your patience.
First thing first : my history with Msoft (un-)support
has been ABYSMAL in two different countries since
2000. I could send you copy of some mails they sent to me. It's worth a museum. Their left hand don't know what their right hand is doing.
Period.

Now, to the point.
As always, I tried to be thorough.
I erased HD from OS X install disk.
I installed OS X from install DVD.
I installed every update from Os X Combo 10.5.7.
I Installed Office from DVD.
I installed EVERY update from Microsoft Update
and I'm now with Word 12.1.7
I migrated my date from Time Machine backup after I did all this.
So it's still possible that something went wrong when migrating from TM.
But is it's the case I have currently something like 500 000 items in it, I'd better quit searching, life is too short.
Unless like Socrates you have a torch to light the darkness.
;-))
Again thank you for your kind patience.

PS : Spell/grammar check had glitches for me since Word X and Word 2004 : it worked but always quirkily.
Never been flawless. But Word 2008 is worst of all.

 

[sthan]

Corentin, John,
You told me Grammar check was not a current problem.
I'd advise you to simply check Apple Store page (french) and click on Office 2008 page.
In the customers comments, you'll find this (more than 283 customers found this USEFUL). Note that Microsoft Support (ha!ha!) told this customer to DISABLE his Grammar check because there is a bug in it).
Denial, anyone ?
Cheers,
Johan F.
Quand même un gros bug

Rédigé par BI à partir de PARIS

3 déc. 2008

J'ai acheté la dernière édition d'Office, dont je me sers très régulièrement. Il y a quand même un léger petit problème dans Word:…En savoir plus
le vérificateur grammatical, qui permet d'éviter bien des coquilles, du style sujet au singulier suivi de verbe au pluriel, ou inversement, NE FONCTIONNE PAS en français. Je me suis adressée au service d'aide technique de Microsoft et on m'a tout simplement conseillé de ne pas me servir de cette fonction. L'ennui, c'est que j'en ai absolument besoin. Donc, je ne peux pas me servir de la dernière version de Word et je suis repassée à la précédente. Sinon, c'est un produit très puissant mais qui ressemble quand même à une usine à gaz...

(283 sur 316 personnes ont trouvé cet avis utile)

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Sthan:

As always, I tried to be thorough.
I erased HD from OS X install disk.
I installed OS X from install DVD.
I installed every update from Os X Combo 10.5.7.
I Installed Office from DVD.
I installed EVERY update from Microsoft Update
and I'm now with Word 12.1.7

Perfect, up to here....

I migrated my date from Time Machine backup after I did all this.

I assume that the ONLY file types you restored at this point were your DATA?
If you bought the Preferences back as well, you would have bought the
problem back.

If the only thing you bought back were the documents you created, you should
be good to go, an we have to start looking for problems in the documents
themselves.

So it's still possible that something went wrong when migrating from TM.

The only thing that could go wrong is if you bought the preferences back as
well. If you did that, your spelling checker is still pointing at files
that are not there, and it WILL indeed crash

But is it's the case I have currently something like 500 000 items in it, I'd
better quit searching, life is too short.

Yeah, at some stage we have to stop the game and move on

Never been flawless. But Word 2008 is worst of all.

Yes, it is. But with enough persistence, you can fix it to the point where
it is useable...

Cheers

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Sthan:

Just a couple of points...

I am not sure on what date Microsoft Support allegedly made the original
comment.

There was indeed a bug in the proofing tools for French in the early version
of Office 2008. Our advice in the very early days was indeed to switch it
off because it was broken. Corentin has more detail than I, but I thought
it was fixed a few months after the product shipped.

And the fact that 283 people clicked a button on a web page is "interesting"
but you might not actually bet your life on it as "reliable" data...

Some of those people would click as a web equivalent of "Me Too" to anything
that seems to say something bad about Microsoft.

Some people may have given in to the temptation to click the button more
than once Casting multiple votes has been the ambition of many since
Democracy was invented...

The fact that they clicked a button that says "I found this helpful" does
not indicate WHAT they found helpful about it. If there was a button there
that said "This solved my problem" I wonder what proportion would have
clicked that?

When reading computer support tips on a website, there is a huge temptation
for people to click "That was the right answer" before they have tried it.
Many people would have difficulty (I would be one...) finding their way back
to a specific post later AFTER trying the solution, just to vote. In which
case, could you really say that the opinions expressed through such buttons
are reliable?

The greatest fear I have is that Microsoft might use the information
compiled from such web pages to shape the design of their future products.
Now THAT would impact the product like a solid dose of Swine Flue, and very
quickly.

Just for your personal amusement, and to avoid an otherwise-legitimate
charge of hypocrisy, I should admit that I can remember myself saying
exactly the same sorts of things about Microsoft, and its products, a lot
more rudely! That was in the mid- 1990's and earlier.

I discovered that by getting in here and putting some work in, I could
actually start to get things fixed. Here's hoping that your efforts will
result in a stable and faultless set of proofing tools for French!

Cheers

Corentin, John,
You told me Grammar check was not a current problem.
I'd advise you to simply check Apple Store page (french) and click on Office
2008 page.
In the customers comments, you'll find this (more than 283 customers found
this USEFUL). Note that Microsoft Support (ha!ha!) told this customer to
DISABLE his Grammar check because there is a bug in it).
Denial, anyone ?
Cheers,
Johan F.
Quand même un gros bug

Rédigé par BI à partir de PARIS

3 déc. 2008

J'ai acheté la dernière édition d'Office, dont je me sers très régulièrement.
Il y a quand même un léger petit problème dans Word:…En savoir plus
le vérificateur grammatical, qui permet d'éviter bien des coquilles, du style
sujet au singulier suivi de verbe au pluriel, ou inversement, NE FONCTIONNE
PAS en français. Je me suis adressée au service d'aide technique de Microsoft
et on m'a tout simplement conseillé de ne pas me servir de cette fonction.
L'ennui, c'est que j'en ai absolument besoin. Donc, je ne peux pas me servir
de la dernière version de Word et je suis repassée à la précédente. Sinon,
c'est un produit très puissant mais qui ressemble quand même à une usine à
gaz...

(283 sur 316 personnes ont trouvé cet avis utile)

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[sthan]

John,
When restoring from TM it is impossible to choose the files.
It's the whole point.
So I cannot forbid the restoring of Preferences.
So it's no use to find a solution.

 

[sthan]

John,
This comment on the Apple Store is from December 2008.
Best
Johan

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

There was indeed a bug in the proofing tools for French in the early version
of Office 2008. Our advice in the very early days was indeed to switch it
off because it was broken. Corentin has more detail than I, but I thought
it was fixed a few months after the product shipped.

Well I keep on saying the same thing: It sure was a problem, but the
problem went away for everybody I know who properly updated their
version of Office 2008. No more report (ever) on microsoft.public.fr.mac
(French-speaking forum ofr Office for Mac).

In addition, the post you mention makes no reference whatsoever to the
version of Office he/she is running. Is it 12.0?? Any update installed
?? Does the problem persist in 12.1.7??

If anything, it is *not* a common problem of the up to date version of
Office 2008. So if someone is still having issues, it's most likely not
due to a bug in Office grammar support itslef. It's more likely to be an
issue with supporting files (cache, font cache?, preference files, etc).

There is no doubt you will find posts from other people experiencing
this issue. Chances are, there are still out there quite a few people
who didn't install the updates.

How talking about denial, can you please explain to me why I don't see
the problem (et je tape tout le temps en français dans Word) and why
people aren't kicking and screaming in nntp://microsoft.public.fr.mac ??


Corentin

 

[sthan]

Dear Corentin,
I'm willing to admit anything, but how come after applying ALL remedies John and yourself kindly advised to apply, I still have the same problem ?
As a reminder :
- erase of OS X
- install of OS from DVD + combo update
- install of Office 2008 from DVD + every possible update

And Grammar check still is defective (telling me that "session must be closed"), and I read that Msoft support told this user to disable the checker altogether (as they told me).

Plus (as an aside) : before and after erase/intall from scratch, sync Entourage/iCal doesn't work anymore…

Cheers
Johan

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Dear Corentin,

Hi Johan,

I'm willing to admit anything, but how come after applying ALL remedies
John and yourself kindly advised to apply, I still have the same problem
?
As a reminder :
- erase of OS X
- install of OS from DVD + combo update
- install of Office 2008 from DVD + every possible update

And Grammar check still is defective (telling me that "session must be
closed"), and I read that Msoft support told this user to disable the
checker altogether (as they told me).

I am in no way denying that you still have a problem. I'm just saying
that your problem is unusual and fairly uncommon.
I think it is important to mention that not everybody has the same
problem since it helps narrowing down the investigations tremendously.
I don't believe it is a general issue that affects everybody (well,
especially since I don;t see it).

Plus (as an aside) : before and after erase/intall from scratch, sync
Entourage/iCal doesn't work anymore...

Well that's weird for instance. Also unheard of for me. SyncServices
have MANY issues, but on a fresh install, I don't see why it wouldn't
work at all.

Let me try to figure out a few additional things:

- When you reinstalled the System, did you keep the same user account as
before or is it the same? Do you have the same set of issues in a test
user account you could create on the same Mac?
That's especially important for the SyncServices issue since failure to
work at all is usually the sign of a corruption either in the
SyncService stores, or in the Entourage database. You can reset the
first one through iSync, and you can try to correct the later through
launching Entourage pressing the Option key down.
That would also tell a lot on the support files the spelling tools might
be trying to access (eg: pre-existing custom dictionaries, pre-existing
cache files, etc).

- is there anything unusual in your setup?? Accented characters in the
name of the drive? In the user name you are using on the Mac??
Relocated user account (eg: on a secondary drive)?? Aliased or symlinked
paths???? (it's a yes for both on my setup, but if there is something
wrong there, it can lead to a whole set of troubles).


Corentin

PS: I might have mentioned before that I've had to call the MS hotline
when I was in France. I wasn't all that impressed when they asked me to
check something on my C: drive :-> I don't necessarely take everything
they say for granted. As John mentioned, as MVPs we are on occasions in
contact with the MacBU folks (who actually *make* these applications)
and I would tend to rely on them a lot more than on the MS support in
France :->

 

[sthan]

Corentin, again :

- my system/account setup is standard, no funny characters/path, nothing
- I re-installed importing the same account from Time Machine. I cannot re-create everything : it's the whole point with Time Machine : not loosing TOO MUCH time when you're loosing already a lot of it. (I should bill the charismatic Mr Ballmer for that).
- I reconstructed database in Entourage 5 TIMES already, before and after erase/install

If the answer is : erase/install from DVD then don't migrate from Time Machine, and manually copy some files and not some others, it's a NO-NO. Besides,
how would I know which file is faulty ?
It's like servicing a car every DAY to make it work properly… dismantling it completely to re-construct it piece by piece.
Really…

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Corentin, again :

Hi Johan,

- my system/account setup is standard, no funny characters/path, nothing

Good. That rules this possibility out,

- I re-installed importing the same account from Time Machine. I cannot
re-create everything : it's the whole point with Time Machine : not
loosing TOO MUCH time when you're loosing already a lot of it. (I should
bill the charismatic Mr Ballmer for that).

Well the problem here is that if one of your support file is corrupted
and making a mess, you reinstall it in the process...
You really need to try a test account (which wouldn't have any of these
files) to be able to rule this out.

- I reconstructed database in Entourage 5 TIMES already, before and
after erase/install

So it's probably not this.

If the answer is : erase/install from DVD then don't migrate from Time
Machine, and manually copy some files and not some others, it's a NO-NO.

Well try the test account option first anyway.
Then you would no it is a support file issue and you can concentrate on
trashing all cache, and support fiels that affect Office.
I realize you need your data back at some point

Besides,
how would I know which file is faulty ?

If we know it is indeed something in ~/, then that narrows down the
investigations tremendously.
Font cache, custom dictionaries, preferences, Office cache and
registration file, etc,

It's like servicing a car every DAY to make it work properly...
dismantling it completely to re-construct it piece by piece.
Really...

Well the issue is that we haven't identified the true cause to this
issue. You can take the car apart and re-put it together everyday, if
you are putting back the same faulty part inside, it's not going to work
any better.

Corentin

 

[sthan]

Corentin,

You wrote :
"Well try the test account option first anyway.
Then you would no it is a support file issue and you can concentrate on
trashing all cache, and support fields that affect Office."

"If we know it is indeed something in ~/, then that narrows down the
investigations tremendously.
Font cache, custom dictionaries, preferences, Office cache and
registration file, etc."

I reply : instead of creating an account, and work from that account (which is again losing my time, because I cannot migrate from account 1 everything to account 2).
So why not ditch all that mess now (I mean all the possible culprits) ?
Isn't it gaining time ? (and I already lost so much of it…)
JF

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

I reply : instead of creating an account, and work from that account
(which is again losing my time, because I cannot migrate from account 1
everything to account 2). So why not ditch all that mess now (I mean all
the possible culprits) ? Isn't it gaining time ? (and I already lost so
much of it...) JF

Because it is really tedious. I don't know for a fact what causes this.
Figuring out which file does is a fishing expedition and it doesn't
sound like something I'd get into without at least knowing for a fact
that the problem resides in ~/
Creating a test account and testing this is a really simple matter. You
create the account, log into it, type a few sentences in Word and see if
it checks grammar and you're set.

After that, log out, get bak in your regular account and use the System
Prefs to delete the test account you created.

Really a matter of a few minutes as opposed to the guessing game where
you have to hunt down potential culprits.

Corentin

 

[sthan]

Granted.
Supposing it works flawlessly in Account # 2.
So What ?

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Sthan:

Or alternatively, Create the Test account and use it. If it works, suck all
your documents across from the other account and you're done...

If you insist on getting your user name back, then you need to delete the
old account, then create a new one with the same name, and suck all your
documents BACK again.

There are two ways to restore a specific file or folder with Time Machine
here:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1427
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=Mac/10.5/en/11422.html

Cheers

Because it is really tedious. I don't know for a fact what causes this.
Figuring out which file does is a fishing expedition and it doesn't
sound like something I'd get into without at least knowing for a fact
that the problem resides in ~/
Creating a test account and testing this is a really simple matter. You
create the account, log into it, type a few sentences in Word and see if
it checks grammar and you're set.

After that, log out, get bak in your regular account and use the System
Prefs to delete the test account you created.

Really a matter of a few minutes as opposed to the guessing game where
you have to hunt down potential culprits.

Corentin

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[sthan]

John,
If I create an account and it works, and if I re-import account 1 documents in account 2, I will re-import the problem with it again.

Oh, and by the ay, since two days I have again this infamous message I get since… let's say 1998 :
"Word cannot save automatically. Too many files are opened. Try to close a window."

There are exactly 1 window open in Word at the moment.
;-))))))))

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Granted.
Supposing it works flawlessly in Account # 2.
So What ?

So you have an awful corruption in User accoun #1.
Option 1: spend countless hours trying to figure out which of the 100
possibilities is responsible for it.
Option 2: Follow the advice John just posted and migrate your user
account to the test account you just created.

Some potential culprits:

Office preferences and cache.
Office ~/Library/Application Support files
Custom dictionaries
A permission issue on any of the above locations.
....


Corentin

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

John,
If I create an account and it works, and if I re-import account 1
documents in account 2, I will re-import the problem with it again.

Probably not if you import Documents. I really think that the problem is
with the supporting files.

To my previous list of potential culprits, I would like to add
templates.....


Corentin