Is this an Auto Numering issue?

[Global Sys Admin]

When I am creating a document using a numbering style, many times when I
reach the end of a line and hit Enter, the numbering will not continue on the
next line. I have to actually place my cursor at the beginning of the
previous line and then hit Enter to get the numering to continue. I have
other docs where the numbering will continue when hitting Enter at the end of
a line, but I can't see where the difference is in the settings.

Any ideas?

 

[Elliott Roper]

When I am creating a document using a numbering style, many times when I
reach the end of a line and hit Enter, the numbering will not continue on the
next line. I have to actually place my cursor at the beginning of the
previous line and then hit Enter to get the numering to continue. I have
other docs where the numbering will continue when hitting Enter at the end of
a line, but I can't see where the difference is in the settings.

Any ideas?

Check with formatting palette or otherwise, whether the un-numbered new
paragraph is really in the numbering style you think it is.

Turn on show paragraph marks. It is possible there are two of them at
the end of your work and the second one is for a non-numbered style.

Make sure that your numbered style definition has the style for the
following paragraph set to itself (in format » style » modify)

I'm not sure either of these is the cause of what you are seeing.
Placing the cursor at the beginning of the last numbered line and
pressing enter should give you an empty numbered paragraph above what
you have already written. Ask again if I mis-diagnosed.

 

[Elliott Roper]

Check with formatting palette or otherwise, whether the un-numbered new
paragraph is really in the numbering style you think it is.

Turn on show paragraph marks. It is possible there are two of them at
the end of your work and the second one is for a non-numbered style.

Make sure that your numbered style definition has the style for the
following paragraph set to itself (in format » style » modify)

I'm not sure either of these is the cause of what you are seeing.
Placing the cursor at the beginning of the last numbered line and
pressing enter should give you an empty numbered paragraph above what
you have already written. Ask again if I mis-diagnosed.

A bit more to this:-
I tried a little experiment. I reproduced what you saw by typing a
non-numbered style paragraph after a numbered one (changing the style
after hitting return) , then changing the style of the following
paragraph back to the numbered one and it failed to number, even though
the formatting palette insisted it was in the numbered style.

I fixed it by selecting the failed numbered paras, changing them to
body style and back to the numbered style. It does not happen every
time.

Looks like a bug to me.

The work around is simple enough and it behaves thereafter.

If it is a bug, it is unlikely to be fixed in Word 2004. 2008 has been
announced for the end of the year.

Auto numbering is a bit fragile, so this is not unexpected.

 

[Global Sys Admin]

Elliott-

Thank you for the response. I tried both suggestion that you recommended
and it does not seem to change anything. I went as far as to clear the
formatting on the line I was working on and then all following lines. Once
cleared, I set them all back to a style of Heading 2, put the cursor at the
end of the line, and hit Enter. No luck.

I'm still thinking there is some other setting that we must be missing...

 

[Elliott Roper]

Elliott-

Thank you for the response. I tried both suggestion that you recommended
and it does not seem to change anything. I went as far as to clear the
formatting on the line I was working on and then all following lines. Once
cleared, I set them all back to a style of Heading 2, put the cursor at the
end of the line, and hit Enter. No luck.

I'm still thinking there is some other setting that we must be missing...

You added auto numbering to Word's heading 2 style?
That was not a good idea. Don't mess with built in styles.
Heading 2's next style defaults to normal, which is not a numbered
style normally. You would not expect the following para on hitting
enter to have numbering continue unless you had set the next style of
Heading 2 to be Heading 2

How did you " clear the
formatting on the line I was working on and then all following lines."?

I have a horrible feeling you are blundering about in styles and
numbering like the sorcerer's apprentice.
Oops, that sounds a bit snotty!
I hope I have not misinterpreted your knowledge of numbering and
styles. Just to be sure, might I suggest a re-reading of "Bend Word to
Your Will"
from:
http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html
and, when you have enough blood caffeine and are sitting comfortably
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html
...and if that is not enough to play with your head, try this:-
http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm

Then, for the next question you ask, I'll need to do some serious
homework. ;-)
Auto-numbering is pretty slippery stuff. When we both understand it
properly, they will sit us on the right hand of god.

 

[John McGhie]

If you want Heading 2 numbering to continue on the next paragraph, you must
use Format>Style... To set the "Style for following paragraph" to "Heading
2".

Otherwise, as Elliott says, Word will format the following paragraph with
Normal style which should have no numbering.

I would strongly disagree with Elliott's suggestion not to mess with
Built-In Styles. I would wrestle them to the ground and bend them to your
will (in fact, I DO!!).

The built-in styles are simply Serving Suggestions, you should season them
to your taste

In fact, when using numbering, it is much faster to change the built-ins
because they have some hard-coded defaults that make style problems when
using numbering far less likely.

Whip the little sods into line

Cheers

Elliott-

Thank you for the response. I tried both suggestion that you recommended
and it does not seem to change anything. I went as far as to clear the
formatting on the line I was working on and then all following lines. Once
cleared, I set them all back to a style of Heading 2, put the cursor at the
end of the line, and hit Enter. No luck.

I'm still thinking there is some other setting that we must be missing...

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Elliott Roper]

If you want Heading 2 numbering to continue on the next paragraph, you must
use Format>Style... To set the "Style for following paragraph" to "Heading
2".

Otherwise, as Elliott says, Word will format the following paragraph with
Normal style which should have no numbering.

I would strongly disagree with Elliott's suggestion not to mess with
Built-In Styles. I would wrestle them to the ground and bend them to your
will (in fact, I DO!!).

The built-in styles are simply Serving Suggestions, you should season them
to your taste

In fact, when using numbering, it is much faster to change the built-ins
because they have some hard-coded defaults that make style problems when
using numbering far less likely.

Whip the little sods into line

You are right of course. My thinking was wedged in the next paragraph
not numbered problem and I thought he'd butchered Heading 2 for a body
style.
There is no better way to get numbered headings than adding numbering
to the heading styles.

 

[Global Sys Admin]

Thank you for all the information, it is a great amount to wade through ;-)
Here is where I'm at, though...

To answer Elliott's questions:

I did not add auto numering to the heading styles. What I was saying was I
highlighted a bunch of Headings and then selected 'Clear Formatting' from the
style dropdown. After this, I simply re-applied Heading 2.

As far as the Heading Style itself, if I go into the 'Styles and Formatting'
menu, click on a heading and hit modify, then select 'Format' and
'Numbering'...I see that an 'Outlined Numbered' item is highlighted. To me,
it seems to be set up properly for the continuation of numbering, but I am
still having no luck.

Here is something interesting, though. As a test, I opened up a fresh
document and clicked on the numbered list icon. I can type something and at
the end of the line if I hit Enter the numbering continues. Now, if I click
on Heading 1 there is not any numbering associated, so I have to modify the
heading and format the numbering. As soon as I select a numering style from
the default options, the continuation of numbering features stops working
when clicking Enter at the end of the line.

Am I missing something in the setup of the numbering for a style?

Thanks again...

 

[Elliott Roper]

Am I missing something in the setup of the numbering for a style?

It is a bit hard to say from here. It is easy to get numbered lists
totally pooched (McGhie's new word ‹ I'm nickin' it.)

Remember one thing. In format » styles » modify, pay particular
attention to the "Style for following paragraph"
If it ain't the same style, you won't expect the following paragraph in
the new style to continue the same numbering.

The numbering should continue when next you use that same paragraph
style somewhere else. (Yes, Yes, Yes, you *can* restart the numbering,
and then it is a whole new numbered list, but Word, in its infinite
wisdom, will keep that a secret from you.)

Secondly, do your testing in a fresh document. It is quite probable
that your numbering is pooched (Oh *thank* you John), in the original,
even though bullets and numbering says both sequences are using a
particular numbering style according to the twee little pictures in
Bullets and numbering.

It is time to sit down with McGhie's article with a stiff whisky by
your side.
It is just remotely possible that Word's designers oversimplified the
user's view of what is a rather powerful facility. Leaving it rather a
mess.

 

[John McGhie]

Sorry, I was not explicit enough, I thought you would find your way from
where I got you.

You need to go to Format>Style>Heading 2>Modify... And set "Style for
following paragraph" to "Heading 2".

The numbering is a component of the style.

Another component of the style determines what happens when you hit Enter at
the end of a line. When you hit Enter, you create a new paragraph: The
"Style for following paragraph" property decides WHICH style will be applied
to the new paragraph>

In your case, you have an unusual requirement: wen you hit Enter at the end
of the line, you want another paragraph with the SAME formatting as the
paragraph you just left. So set the name of that style -- "Heading 2" in
there.

One thing I was too lazy to describe (because it gets very complicated) is
that there are two ways of applying numbering. You can apply numbering as
part of a style: that's what I am setting you up to do, because it is the
easiest, most stable and most reliable method.

Alternatively, you can apply numbering as Direct Formatting, over the top of
the style. Then the "Style for following paragraph" setting has an
"undefined" effect, and so does everything else. Because there is no
regular structure to direct formatting, we strongly suggest that people do
not use it for anything except simple letters to Mom, because the
complexities, dependencies, knock-on effects and cumulative effects just
become too complex. If you use Direct Formatting to apply numbering,
ultimately, we "cannot say" what will happen, and often, neither can you.

Shauna Kelly comprehensively documented Word's native numbering mechanism on
her website. Spend a moment studying that, and you will never have problems
with Word numbering again.

Hope this helps

Thank you for all the information, it is a great amount to wade through ;-)
Here is where I'm at, though...

To answer Elliott's questions:

I did not add auto numering to the heading styles. What I was saying was I
highlighted a bunch of Headings and then selected 'Clear Formatting' from the
style dropdown. After this, I simply re-applied Heading 2.

As far as the Heading Style itself, if I go into the 'Styles and Formatting'
menu, click on a heading and hit modify, then select 'Format' and
'Numbering'...I see that an 'Outlined Numbered' item is highlighted. To me,
it seems to be set up properly for the continuation of numbering, but I am
still having no luck.

Here is something interesting, though. As a test, I opened up a fresh
document and clicked on the numbered list icon. I can type something and at
the end of the line if I hit Enter the numbering continues. Now, if I click
on Heading 1 there is not any numbering associated, so I have to modify the
heading and format the numbering. As soon as I select a numering style from
the default options, the continuation of numbering features stops working
when clicking Enter at the end of the line.

Am I missing something in the setup of the numbering for a style?

Thanks again...

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

On 1/8/07 7:22 PM, in article C2D671B9.613D%[email protected], "John McGhie"

Another component of the style determines what happens when you hit Enter at
the end of a line.

<snip>

Note for anyone watching, now or in the future: "Enter" is because the
original poster uses a PC. On the Mac it's "Return".

CH
==

 

[John McGhie]

Unless you are using a modern Mac, in which case the key has both labels on
it

Now, I'm off to play on the Mag Lev.... [Note to other readers: the
Shanghai Mag Lev train has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I
just dropped it in to make Clive jealous ...]

On 1/8/07 7:22 PM, in article C2D671B9.613D%[email protected], "John McGhie"



<snip>

Note for anyone watching, now or in the future: "Enter" is because the
original poster uses a PC. On the Mac it's "Return".

CH
==

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

Unless you are using a modern Mac, in which case the key has both labels on
it

Now, I'm off to play on the Mag Lev.... [Note to other readers: the
Shanghai Mag Lev train has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I
just dropped it in to make Clive jealous ...]

[OT]: As I tell all the girls, I'm not the jealous type.

But make sure the photos are good ones... ;-)

CH
===

 

[Ned Block]

Dear "Global Sys Admin" [it would be handy to have your real name, even if
you invent one],

Have you set up your outline numbering **exactly** as described in Shauna
Kelly's masterpiece, which Elliott mentioned?
(http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html)

Word's outline numbering is an unbelievably complex mechanism, and unless
set up to the letter (as Shauna sets down) is guaranteed to bowl a chinaman
googly at you. It is *totally* unforgiving of even the most minor slip.
There are therefore no short cuts...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from North America and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
============================================================


Dear Clive, I very much appreciate your contributions to this group,
but I have to take exception to "bowl a chinaman googly". It may seem
a harmless piece of language but there isn't so much distance between
it and pieces of clear racist trash like "jew him down". According to
Wikipedia, it may have its origin in a racist remark. Here is what
they say: "In one version, the term is believed to relate to former
West Indian spin bowler Ellis "Puss" Achong. in the 1933 Old Trafford
Test match, Achong, a left-arm orthodox spinner and the first Test
cricketer of Chinese ancestry, bowled an unexpected wrist-spin
delivery turning from off to leg, and had the English batsman Walter
Robins stumped by Ivan Barrow as a result. Legend has it that Robins,
as he walked back to the pavilion, remarked "Fancy being done by a
bloody Chinaman".[1] The 1987 obituary of Achong in Wisden says that
the dismissal of Robins gave the term currency in England."

 

[Elliott Roper]

Dear "Global Sys Admin" [it would be handy to have your real name, even if
you invent one],

Have you set up your outline numbering **exactly** as described in Shauna
Kelly's masterpiece, which Elliott mentioned?
(http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html)

Word's outline numbering is an unbelievably complex mechanism, and unless
set up to the letter (as Shauna sets down) is guaranteed to bowl a chinaman
googly at you. It is *totally* unforgiving of even the most minor slip.
There are therefore no short cuts...

Dear Clive, I very much appreciate your contributions to this group,
but I have to take exception to "bowl a chinaman googly". It may seem
a harmless piece of language but there isn't so much distance between
it and pieces of clear racist trash like "jew him down". According to
Wikipedia, it may have its origin in a racist remark. Here is what
they say: "In one version, the term is believed to relate to former
West Indian spin bowler Ellis "Puss" Achong. in the 1933 Old Trafford
Test match, Achong, a left-arm orthodox spinner and the first Test
cricketer of Chinese ancestry, bowled an unexpected wrist-spin
delivery turning from off to leg, and had the English batsman Walter
Robins stumped by Ivan Barrow as a result. Legend has it that Robins,
as he walked back to the pavilion, remarked "Fancy being done by a
bloody Chinaman".[1] The 1987 obituary of Achong in Wisden says that
the dismissal of Robins gave the term currency in England."

I strongly suspect this is a wind-up, but on the ever-so-remote chance
of this not being a left-handed googly. I shall attempt to play it with
a straight bat.

You sir, are an uptight Seppo.
Since you are posting from a nyu.edu address may I assume you reside in
one of the most irony-deficient regions of the entire planet?

You can have no concept of how much admiration is contained in the
expression "chinaman" in this context. You can get no further from
'clear racist trash' without gushing.

May I suggest you divert your inquiry to exploring the etymology of
Ellis Achong's sobriquet? It would be fascinating to get an American
perspective.

Ah! A little googling shows there exists a Ned Block at NYU, and that
he visited a cricket playing country in 2003.

It is unkind of you to impugn his reputation so.

I guess I better put a smiley in.
;-)
*there*

 

[CyberTaz]

Dear "Global Sys Admin" [it would be handy to have your real name, even if
you invent one],

Have you set up your outline numbering **exactly** as described in Shauna
Kelly's masterpiece, which Elliott mentioned?
(http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html)

Word's outline numbering is an unbelievably complex mechanism, and unless
set up to the letter (as Shauna sets down) is guaranteed to bowl a chinaman
googly at you. It is *totally* unforgiving of even the most minor slip.
There are therefore no short cuts...

Dear Clive, I very much appreciate your contributions to this group,
but I have to take exception to "bowl a chinaman googly". It may seem
a harmless piece of language but there isn't so much distance between
it and pieces of clear racist trash like "jew him down". According to
Wikipedia, it may have its origin in a racist remark. Here is what
they say: "In one version, the term is believed to relate to former
West Indian spin bowler Ellis "Puss" Achong. in the 1933 Old Trafford
Test match, Achong, a left-arm orthodox spinner and the first Test
cricketer of Chinese ancestry, bowled an unexpected wrist-spin
delivery turning from off to leg, and had the English batsman Walter
Robins stumped by Ivan Barrow as a result. Legend has it that Robins,
as he walked back to the pavilion, remarked "Fancy being done by a
bloody Chinaman".[1] The 1987 obituary of Achong in Wisden says that
the dismissal of Robins gave the term currency in England."

I strongly suspect this is a wind-up, but on the ever-so-remote chance
of this not being a left-handed googly. I shall attempt to play it with
a straight bat.

You sir, are an uptight Seppo.
Since you are posting from a nyu.edu address may I assume you reside in
one of the most irony-deficient regions of the entire planet?

You can have no concept of how much admiration is contained in the
expression "chinaman" in this context. You can get no further from
'clear racist trash' without gushing.

May I suggest you divert your inquiry to exploring the etymology of
Ellis Achong's sobriquet? It would be fascinating to get an American
perspective.

Ah! A little googling shows there exists a Ned Block at NYU, and that
he visited a cricket playing country in 2003.

It is unkind of you to impugn his reputation so.

I guess I better put a smiley in.
;-)
*there*

Ah, my dear Elliott, I fear you are fighting a losing battle - though I
admire, respect & support the gallant effort

The tirade to which you responded reminds me of the stir some years back
concerning athletic teams named for anything that could be remotely
construed as ethnically related - such as Indians, Chiefs, Braves, Redskins,
ad infinitum... As though anyone would saddle their local sports teams with
a moniker derived from disrespect. I watched & listened patiently for the
Audubon Society to tar and feather [no pun intended] the teams named for
birds. Fortunately it didn't go *quite* that far, but the mentality is alive
& well... And continues to propagate

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Ned Block]

Dear "Global Sys Admin" [it would be handy to have your real name, even if
you invent one],
Have you set up your outline numbering **exactly** as described in Shauna
Kelly's masterpiece, which Elliott mentioned?
(http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html)
Word's outline numbering is an unbelievably complex mechanism, and unless
set up to the letter (as Shauna sets down) is guaranteed to bowl a chinaman
googly at you. It is *totally* unforgiving of even the most minor slip.
There are therefore no short cuts...
Cheers,
Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from North America and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
============================================================
On 31/7/07 4:46 AM, in article 300720071946342922%[email protected], "Elliott

Dear Clive, I very much appreciate your contributions to this group,
but I have to take exception to "bowl a chinaman googly". It may seem
a harmless piece of language but there isn't so much distance between
it and pieces of clear racist trash like "jew him down". According to
Wikipedia, it may have its origin in a racist remark. Here is what
they say: "In one version, the term is believed to relate to former
West Indian spin bowler Ellis "Puss" Achong. in the 1933 Old Trafford
Test match, Achong, a left-arm orthodox spinner and the first Test
cricketer of Chinese ancestry, bowled an unexpected wrist-spin
delivery turning from off to leg, and had the English batsman Walter
Robins stumped by Ivan Barrow as a result. Legend has it that Robins,
as he walked back to the pavilion, remarked "Fancy being done by a
bloody Chinaman".[1] The 1987 obituary of Achong in Wisden says that
the dismissal of Robins gave the term currency in England."

Ned,

I caution you against taking exception solely based on a Wikipedia article
on the grounds that it "*may* have its origins in a racist remark". My
knowledge of the origin of the cricketing term, in an Australian context and
with much older antecedents, is quite different. It involves the historic
use of the term "Chinaman", inoffensively, in Australia, but I do not intend
to go into that).

Identical words in the English language, as used in different countries,
have quite different meanings and overtones. I can think of some words in
polite US and UK parlance, for example, which are quite offensive in
Australian usage -- because they have totally different meanings. As thisis
an international discussion group I am careful, conversely, to avoid using
any terms that might cause offence to English-speakers from another culture.
But you draw far too long a bow with your imputation.

I find your extension to '[not] so much distance between it and pieces of
clear racist trash like "jew him down"' quite extraordinary and, inasmuchas
you attribute such thinking to me, completely uncalled for. I do not use
such terms, and I find them totally offensive -- albeit I have never
previously heard of the term you refer to.

I think it is particularly unwarranted for you to impute proximity to such
grossly offensive terms as you quote from my use of an obscure bowling term
from cricket that has only the *possibility* of offensiveness, in a British
context only. It is even more unwarranted that, based on such an unfounded
premise, you make your accusations in a public forum.

Clive Huggan

Dear Clive, I didn't attribute racist thinking to you personally. My
remark was about what is implicit in the culture of using that term. I
have heard significant anti-semitic slurs in the American South in
public places, e.g. elevators, where the people making them probably
didn't know I was Jewish. I am really glad the climate of opinion has
veered towards more cultural-linguistic sensitivity. Elliott, I see
why you think my remark was a wind-up--it would have seemed the same
to me years ago before things changed here. Cyber Taz: you know there
is still considerable prejudice against um...native Americans in some
parts of the US. Given the stuff we did to them, I don't think it is
bad that they now get to decide what they are called.
cheers
Ned

 

[Jacques]

Word's outline numbering is an unbelievably complex mechanism, and
unless
set up to the letter (as Shauna sets down) is guaranteed to bowl a
chinaman
googly at you. It is *totally* unforgiving of even the most minor slip.
There are therefore no short cuts...

Dear Clive, I very much appreciate your contributions to this group,
but I have to take exception to "bowl a chinaman googly". It may seem
a harmless piece of language but there isn't so much distance between
it and pieces of clear racist trash like "jew him down". According to
Wikipedia, it may have its origin in a racist remark. Here is what
they say: "In one version, the term is believed to relate to former
West Indian spin bowler Ellis "Puss" Achong. in the 1933 Old Trafford
Test match, Achong, a left-arm orthodox spinner and the first Test
cricketer of Chinese ancestry, bowled an unexpected wrist-spin
delivery turning from off to leg, and had the English batsman Walter
Robins stumped by Ivan Barrow as a result. Legend has it that Robins,
as he walked back to the pavilion, remarked "Fancy being done by a
bloody Chinaman".[1] The 1987 obituary of Achong in Wisden says that
the dismissal of Robins gave the term currency in England."

I caution you against taking exception solely based on a Wikipedia article
on the grounds that it "*may* have its origins in a racist remark". My
knowledge of the origin of the cricketing term, in an Australian context
and
with much older antecedents, is quite different. It involves the historic
use of the term "Chinaman", inoffensively, in Australia, but I do not
intend
to go into that).

Identical words in the English language, as used in different countries,
have quite different meanings and overtones. I can think of some words in
polite US and UK parlance, for example, which are quite offensive in
Australian usage -- because they have totally different meanings. As this
is
an international discussion group I am careful, conversely, to avoid using
any terms that might cause offence to English-speakers from another
culture.
But you draw far too long a bow with your imputation.

I find your extension to '[not] so much distance between it and pieces of
clear racist trash like "jew him down"' quite extraordinary and, inasmuch
as
you attribute such thinking to me, completely uncalled for. I do not use
such terms, and I find them totally offensive -- albeit I have never
previously heard of the term you refer to.

I think it is particularly unwarranted for you to impute proximity to such
grossly offensive terms as you quote from my use of an obscure bowling term
from cricket that has only the *possibility* of offensiveness, in a British
context only. It is even more unwarranted that, based on such an unfounded
premise, you make your accusations in a public forum.

Clive Huggan

Dear Clive, I didn't attribute racist thinking to you personally. My
remark was about what is implicit in the culture of using that term. I
have heard significant anti-semitic slurs in the American South in
public places, e.g. elevators, where the people making them probably
didn't know I was Jewish. I am really glad the climate of opinion has
veered towards more cultural-linguistic sensitivity.[/QUOTE]

So what *is* it that, in your view, is "implicit in the culture" of
using the term? How can racist thinking be "implicit" in a term despite
not being intended by the person using the term?

I think what you mean is that people may reasonably be offended by terms
which are not intended to be racist by the person using them, and in
which racist thinking is therefore not "implicit" at all. While that may
be true of some terms, it's hard to see how anyone could reasonably be
offended by the use of a word in a sense which implies great skill. To
bowl a chinaman is, almost by definition, to bowl well.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Jacques:

So what *is* it that, in your view, is "implicit in the culture" of
using the term? How can racist thinking be "implicit" in a term despite
not being intended by the person using the term?

I think what you mean is that people may reasonably be offended by terms
which are not intended to be racist by the person using them, and in
which racist thinking is therefore not "implicit" at all. While that may
be true of some terms, it's hard to see how anyone could reasonably be
offended by the use of a word in a sense which implies great skill. To
bowl a chinaman is, almost by definition, to bowl well.

Particularly if you happen to BE a Chinese Person

I am in Beijing right now, and I am sure the members of the fledgling
Beijing Cricket club would be delighted and very proud if they managed to
bowl "a chinaman".

The Chinese treat people with great courtesy, ESPECIALLY foreigners. They
expect us to do the same for them. They can take a joke, and once they know
you, they will tease you outrageously!

If you come to Beijing for the Olympics next year, you'll probably get
swamped in the hordes (Olympics are like that: I know, we just had one in
Sydney...)

But the greatest danger you will face is over-eating. And chances are, you
will have such a good time you will want to come back

Just don't expect to out-bling them with your technology. Everything you
use is MADE here, and they drip cell phones wherever they go It's the
first time I have seen a waiter in a restaurant take my order on a mobile
phone A MacBook from the Apple Store in Shanghai will set you back
RMB11,000 (about $200 cheaper than Sydney, roughly the same as the USA
price). More if you want Windows on it too.

Cheers

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John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
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