Jim Buyens ... an idea for an article: Best Practices

E

E. T. Culling

Jim ... you're the one to do this. We need an article (tutorial, call it
what ever) that discusses "Best Practices". Many of us know that there are
certain capabilities that FrontPage has that we should not use. Hover
buttons and absolute positioning are two that come to mind. After seeing a
previous post by someone using Publisher to build unwieldy pages caution
should be mentioned about that. Such an article could cover all the
questions that are asked over and over ... some of the beginner problems.
Now that font tags are deprecated the article could go a long way to
encourage the use of CSS ... with hints at how to start using it in both
previous versions and now more easily in FP 2003!
Photo galleries are quite a problem for many also. I have tutorials on my
site about them but you might add some cautionary remarks here too.

Others reading this message... please add to the list!
Eleanor
 
K

Kevin Spencer

Why is absolute positioning bad?

Well, now, that's a good point. It's not bad. Like anything else, it has its
place. If you are targeting the right browser(s) and use it correctly, it
can be invaluable. However, it requires a great deal of expertise to use
correctly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
http://www.takempis.com
Big Things are made up of
Lots of Little Things.
 
J

Jim Buyens

I've considered adding a page like this to my Web site,
and I'll take your suggestion as an added incentive. But
I'm behind on several other projects right now and I can't
promise any kind of near-term date.

Also, I suspect I'm not a very typical FrontPage user. As
a result, my best practices and someone else's are
probably quite different.

Overall, I'm much more a Web programmer than a Web
designer. Because of this, my use of FrontPage is almost
entirely for page layout and publishing. I never use:

Navigation View
Link Bars
Themes
Shared Borders
Hover Buttons
Ad Banners
Absolute Positioning
Drawing
Scheduled Include
Web Search
Save Results
Database Results Wizard
Database Editor
Marquees
Hit Counters
Photo Galleries
Table of Contents
Categories

or any other FrontPage components. I used to use Include
Page a lot, but I stopped because it doesn't work on .aspx
pages. The jury is out on Dynamic Web Templates.

I've never purchased a FrontPage Add-In, nor installed any
free ones. Instead, I just write my own code. That's also
why I don't use components like Web Search and Database
Results Wizard. I have much more flexibility writing my
own code.

I've been leaning back toward Absolute Positioning a bit
lately, but only for constructing DHTML menus by hand.

I used to write a lot of ASP code in FrontPage, but during
the past year or two I've gravitated toward writing
ASP.NET code in Visual Studio .NET. I do page layouts in
FrontPage, then add my program code in Visual Studio, test
in Visual Studio, and then use FrontPage to publish.

I generally code page headings and footers as ASP.NET Web
User Controls. This makes it very easy to start a new page
in Visual Studio. I drag my header, footer, and style
sheet onto a new blank page, then start adding form
controls and other content. This is so easy that I really
feel no need to mess around with page templates.

When it comes to creating and aligning tables, inserting
pictures, and formatting HTML, FrontPage is tops. I do
very little of that in Visual Studio.

When developing Web sites, I probably spend more than 80%
of my time in Visual Studio and less than 20% in
FrontPage. Of course, that changes completely when I'm
working on a FrontPage book. During those times, I'm
crawling through every single feature of FrontPage to see
how it works and what the pitfalls might be. And I learn a
lot by find answers to questions on this newsgroup.

I use linked CSS files for almost all typography.
Occasionally, however, I *will* use <b> and <i> tags. I
also use inline styles for things like a blank line:
<p style="margin:0">&nbsp;</p>
or a "fake" horizontal rule:
<p style="margin:0; font-size:1px;
background-color: #cc0000;">&nbsp;</p>

I've yet to develop the perfect photo gallery. The one at
http://www.interlacken.com/fp11extras/piclib/default.aspx
is pretty close, except that the facility for titles is
crude and there's no facility for captions.
o Titles come from picture file names: a picture named
0500_Machu_Picchu.jpg, for example, automatically gets
titled "Machu Picchu".)
o To add or organize pictures, I just add the full-sized
photo to a folder in my Web site. The piclist.aspx page
in the left frame reads the folder contents and
generates thumbnails on the fly.
o I have a later version that does slides shows (i.e.
that advances to a new picture every few seconds)
but as yet there are no on-line examples of this.

Most of my Web sites are business systems that run on
Intranets. My personal site at www.interlacken.com is the
only public one.

My favorite FP2003 features are:
o The Quick Tag Selector.
o Built-in "Open As Text".
o Design view display of ASP.NET tags.
o IntelliSense in Code view.
o Sensible Paste in Code View.
o Enhanced Find/Replace dialog box.
o Remote Site View.
o Publishing in either direction, or synchronizing.

The one thing in FP2003 I would change:
o Add capability for plain-text paste. (Paste <p>, <br>,
<table>, <tr>, <td>, and plain text; discard all
formatting.) Provide an option to make this the default.

Most promising new feature:
o Integration with Windows SharePoint Services. However,
for now, this will primarily interest businesses
that commit to SharePoint as a corporate portal
solution.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
C

chris leeds

I'll add my two cents:

how about a visual studio .net book for people who are familiar with
FrontPage but not vs?
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

Jim,

You are not alone!

I use FP in exactly the same way, however I have chosen for the moment to
stay with Classic ASP, so all my development work is done within FP2000.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
J

Jim Buyens

-----Original Message-----
I'll add my two cents:

how about a visual studio .net book for people who are
familiar with FrontPage but not vs?

That's an interesting idea.

How would you convince MS Press that there's a large and
willing audience for sucha book?

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
C

chris leeds

I would tell them this way:

Obviously there is a demand for "more" in the way of FrontPage, as
demonstrated by what they did with it for version 2003.
there would logically be a proportional volume of people who want it "all"
as would be afforded by vs.net and asp.net

how's that? ;-)
 
E

E. T. Culling

Thank you very much for that insightful answer! I find I don't use anything
in that first list either. I used to use Photo Galleries but gave up in
total frustration.
Please let us know when a 'best practices' page is ready or when you want
more suggestions.
Eleanor
 
J

Jim Cheshire

I think that most developers would agree that there is plenty of good
documentation (including in books) on programming with the .NET Framework,
but very little on getting the most out of Visual Studio .NET. Even the
Microsoft documentation is lacking in this area. While there is
considerable documentation included with VS.NET, it is spread out among the
MSDN docs, and it's often not easy to connect the points unless you are
already familiar with the features.

I talk to developers every day, and I never cease to be amazed by the number
of developers who are building enterprise applications and yet don't know a
thing about how to debug effectively in VS.NET.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco Add-ins
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
===================================
Co-author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft FrontPage 2003
Order it today!
http://sefp2003.frontpagelink.com
 
J

Jim Buyens

Kind of like, "Visual Studio Eye for the FrontPage Guy,
eh?

Do you think such a book should be aimed at Web Designers
as a way to get interactive features, or as a straight
Visual Studio book with a Web slant?

Do you think a lot of Web Designers would be scared off
by a more-or-less straight Visual Studio book?

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

There is already an MSDN article on
Best Practices for Working with HTML Code in Microsoft FrontPage version 2002
at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnfp2k2/html/odc_BPfpHTML.asp
and
Best Practices for ASP Development in FrontPage 2002
at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnfp2k2/html/odc_BPfpHTML.asp




| Jim ... you're the one to do this. We need an article (tutorial, call it
| what ever) that discusses "Best Practices". Many of us know that there are
| certain capabilities that FrontPage has that we should not use. Hover
| buttons and absolute positioning are two that come to mind. After seeing a
| previous post by someone using Publisher to build unwieldy pages caution
| should be mentioned about that. Such an article could cover all the
| questions that are asked over and over ... some of the beginner problems.
| Now that font tags are deprecated the article could go a long way to
| encourage the use of CSS ... with hints at how to start using it in both
| previous versions and now more easily in FP 2003!
| Photo galleries are quite a problem for many also. I have tutorials on my
| site about them but you might add some cautionary remarks here too.
|
| Others reading this message... please add to the list!
| Eleanor
|
|
 
C

chris leeds

I'd stick with the VS eye for the FP guy.
the thing is most web dev guys will get into the programming for results on
their web projects, few will want to graduate to "straight programming" for
programming sake.
something like: "if you thought you could do great things with FrontPage,
wait till I show you what you can do with vs.net"
IMHO
If there was a visual studio book that "spoke to me" I'd pay almost anything
for it ;-)
 
E

E. T. Culling

That article (first one below) is excellent but probably 'over the heads' of
many. I think Jim's article should take a simpler approach and be geared
toward beginners and advanced beginners. It need not go into so much detail.
This article could be referenced at the end. I sure didn't read every word
but I think It didn't mention not using hover buttons ... a trap for many a
beginner.
Eleanor
 
J

Jim Buyens

-----Original Message-----
That article (first one below) is excellent but
probably 'over the heads' of many. I think Jim's article
should take a simpler approach and be geared toward
beginners and advanced beginners. It need not go into so
much detail. This article could be referenced at the end.
I sure didn't read every word but I think It didn't
mention not using hover buttons ... a trap for many a
beginner.
Eleanor

I guess part of my message was that hardly anyone is
typical. I'm certainly far to the programming side of
center, but other people are far to the artistic side, far
to the e-commerce side, far to the small business side,
far to the newbie side, or whatever.

Each of these specialties has its own set of best
practices, and that makes the job of creating a best
practices pretty difficult. It just wouldn't work if I
told everyone to work the way I do.

Perhaps a "10 Most Troublesome Features" list or a "Top 10
Traps for Newbies," list would be more effective.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
K

KM

Why would you stick with FP2000 for using Classic Asp vs FP2003 for Classic
asp?
I use classic asp with FP2003 and like it much better than FP2000. What is
holding you back?
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

I don't need any of the new features/functions provided by FP2002/FP2003 and
FP2000 is working just fine.

However I do like the overall look of FP2003, so I may start using it for
actual development work early next year, vs. using it just to help users
that post here.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
D

Dennis Blondell

I would like to second what Chris is saying. My programmer has gust got
vs.net and raves about it but I am stuck as he doesn't want to do html
formatting and want's me to fix his final asp.net projects for browser
compatibility and some table formatting etc. Can't seem to do it very well
in FP2003 as all <asp:panel.... areas are closed off in design view. Can't
find any resources on how to edit these areas in FP and am forced to learn
to use vs.net as a html editor. I'm not a programmer, just a FP guy. Catchy
title too "Visual Studio Eye for the FrontPage Guy" as log as Guy can be
considered as girls as well.
 

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