Line spacing nightmares

[planethoth]

Hi am trying to do an assignment that involves line and paragraph
spacing to specs, for example, spacing between two paragraphs of text,
or a horizontal line (picture) and text. Problem is, I seem to get
different results depending on whether I highlight the top element and
select spacing "After" in the dialog box, or if I choose the bottom
element and use "Before". And also, when I highlight both elements at
once, and click "At least".

I am not sure what method I should properly use, for a concrete
example, to make the spacing between a horizontal line and the text
below it, 2 pt. line spacing. And then another 2 pt. line spacing, a
horizontal line, and then 6 pt. line spacing below that...

Or for another slightly different example, how to properly make the
body text stay 18 pt. line spacing above the footer?

I'm using Word 2004 for Mac...

 

[planethoth]

Another way of putting this, in broad terms:

What is the most effective and correct way of adjusting line spacing
between any two lines of text or graphics?

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi planethoth,

I think you're doing it right by using the Space Before & After tool. The
problem may be that every font contains a certain amount of blank space
built into it. You'll see what I mean if you type the same sentence a
number of times and change each one to a different font; there will be
relatively more or less space between the lines of text depending on the
font.

So if what you need is an absolute 2 px of space, *including* whatever space
is inherent in the font (or picture) itself, then you have a problem I don't
know how to solve.

How was your horizontal line created? If it's a true picture (JPEG, for
instance), can you edit it so as to remove ALL space above and below the
line? If not, I don't see how it's possible to completely control the space
above or below using Word.

Sorry.

--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***

Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm>
(If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice ­ or use another browser.)
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org>

 

[planethoth]

Well, I am using the default line contained in the Insert > Pictures
menu in Word. So is it correct, for example, to just highlight the
horizontal line and then put 2 pt. line space "After"? Does it matter
which one I use? My instructor seemed to think I was doing it wrong,
but I definitely used that technique.... I checked it several times.

 

[CyberTaz]

Just chiming in, but what the instructor may be referring to:

Assuming the Border is obtained by way of Format|Borders &
Shading|Horizontal Line... Cmd+Click the line & choose Borders & Shading
from the menu. Make sure the line is indicated as Apply to: Paragraph, then
click the Options button. The settings there may be what he/she is expecting
you to use.

Regards |:>)

 

[planethoth]

Yes, it seems the instructor wants there to be 2 pts. between this line
and the test in real terms, which seems to me virtually impossible. 2
pts. is very small, and the line obviously has a certain amount of
spacing between it.

I tried the Borders and Shading options, too. But it seems to have no
effect!! This is very frustrating. What do the various Wrap options,
such as "Behind Text", "In front of text", "through", etc. do, do they
have any bearing on this?

 

[CyberTaz]

I should have added that the Options I mentioned _wouldn't_ have any
effect on a Horizontal Line, they actually pertain to regular Borders
applied to paragraphs. Forgive me for duping you, but that's just my
manipulative way of trying to find out whether the instructor knows
what he/she is talking about {8>). I've had students fail tests because
the methods I had trained them to use were more advanced (as well as
more efficient) than what the testers were familiar with.

Anyway... the H/L is inserted as a picture, In Line With Text as the
default 'wrapping' option. It is effectively one wide character
occupying an entire single-line paragraph. Using the other wrap options
would make the H/L a 'floating' graphic on which line spacing &
paragraph spacing would have no effect... but see 2 paras down.

Given that, is it possible that you are being expected to use
Format>FONT (rather than pargraph) & apply Position: Raised or Lowered
from the Character Spacing page? even so, it would involve some
accurate calculation based on several specifications, some of which is
not only unavailable, but also variable.

OTOH- If you select the line, activate the Picture Toolbar & apply 'In
Front of Text', you can then dbl-click the graphic to get to Format
Horizontal Line properties that aren't 'normally' available, including
other wrap options. On the Layout page, click the Advanced button &
select Top & Bottom. Then you can set Top & Bottom Distance from Text
in the value boxes, but this is still an approximation based on the
same variables as above. If this isn't what your instructor is looking
for, either, and he/she has a reasonable solution, I might sign up for
some classes, myself :0)

Like Beth, however, I am having a great deal of difficulty visualizing
the intent.

Good Luck |:>)

 

[planethoth]

This is a technical writing class, and we are supposed to be designing
a manual to specs. The instructor has not given me very much in the way
of guidance on this, she basically says, just do it, not in so many
words. But imagine this set up:

________________________________
text in footer page #

or alternatively, this one:

_____________________________
text text text text text
_____________________________

u see, in both of these case she wants 2 pt. line spacing between the
horizontal line(s) and the text. In the best case scenario, I simply
cannot squeeze the spacing any farther than maybe a total of 7 or 8
pts. without it disappearing entirely. I cannot see how she would
expect us to get crazy sophisticated for this---the class is an intro
class for tech writing! Nonetheless, she expects this 2 pt. line space
to emerge somehow! Does this illuminate things any?

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Hi:

OK, I *am* a technical writer. Have been for the past 30 years or so. So
let's see if I can shed a little light on this...

You are using the wrong kind of "line" for your border.

No technical writer would use Insert>Picture to produce a horizontal line
related to text, for all the reasons you have just discovered. Use that
mechanism ONLY for drawing lines that are part of "pictures".

Anyone who actually gets a job as a technical writer will always use styles
for everything, so stop fiddling around with direct formatting: if you did
direct formatting on my team, I would not be retaining your services for
long

To get a line above the text in the footer, set a top border on your Footer
style.

1) View>Header and Footer and go into the Footer. It should automatically
be formatted with the Footer style.

2) Format>Style>Modify>Format>Border...

3) Set a Top border on the style and click Options

4) Make From Text 2 points at the top, and set the other three to 0

That will pass your assignment. When you get out into the real world, make
the spacing 4 points, which is what the rest of the industry uses

Making the body text remain 18 points above the footer is more complex.

1) Calculate the total height of your footer

2) Decide the distance from the edge of the sheet to the BOTTOM of your
footer. I normally use 1.25 cm, but you can use whatever you like.

3) Go to Format>Document>Margins and set that measurement in the Footer
"From edge" box.

4) Now add the height of your footer to 18 points. Let's assume your
footer is comprised of two lines of ten point text on "single" spacing with
6 points leading below each line. The height of each line is 120 per cent
of the font height (12 points), plus six points = 18 points, so your footer
is 36 points high. If you want it half an inch (36 points) from the edge,
the top of your footer would be 72 points above the edge of the paper. You
need a further 18 points above that, so set your bottom page margin to be 86
points.

Now, be careful: your instructor may not know this: If you have dynamic
content (e.g. StyleRef fields) in your footer that cause its height to
change, Word will dynamically expand the page margin if necessary to
preserve the bottom extremity of the footer at the measure you set.

For this reason, if you are printing directly from Word, choose a page
design that enables the footer to expand without trouble, or ensure that the
footer does not expand

To answer your next question: The ONLY effective way of obtaining consistent
line spacing in Word is to use spacing in the paragraph settings of your
styles.

Some older versions of Word have problems with Space Above. They should
suppress it if the line is the first line at the top of a page, but Word has
complex rules as to whether it actually *does*. The easy way to work around
this is to use Space Above only on "Heading" styles. Use only Space Below
to separate the lines on most other styles.

I set ten points space below on almost all of my styles, and 0 points space
above on all the "text" styles. This gives a nice even spacing across the
whole style set, and a nice even top margin on each page.

On the Heading styles, I set 2.5 times the font height as Space Above. This
gives a good visual balance to separate the headings from the text above.
All heading styles also get ten points space below to separate the following
text. On Heading 1, I set 0 space above because it always begins a page,
and I set Page Break Before on Heading 1 to ensure that it "does" begin a
page.

So there you go: Welcome to my profession. If you pass the course, give me
a call and I'll help you get a job

Cheers

This is a technical writing class, and we are supposed to be designing
a manual to specs. The instructor has not given me very much in the way
of guidance on this, she basically says, just do it, not in so many
words. But imagine this set up:

________________________________
text in footer page #

or alternatively, this one:

_____________________________
text text text text text
_____________________________

u see, in both of these case she wants 2 pt. line spacing between the
horizontal line(s) and the text. In the best case scenario, I simply
cannot squeeze the spacing any farther than maybe a total of 7 or 8
pts. without it disappearing entirely. I cannot see how she would
expect us to get crazy sophisticated for this---the class is an intro
class for tech writing! Nonetheless, she expects this 2 pt. line space
to emerge somehow! Does this illuminate things any?

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Elliott Roper]

Some older versions of Word have problems with Space Above. They should
suppress it if the line is the first line at the top of a page, but Word has
complex rules as to whether it actually *does*. The easy way to work around
this is to use Space Above only on "Heading" styles. Use only Space Below
to separate the lines on most other styles.

I thought I'd re-visit that in 2004. I always had trouble with 2 column
text.

(My style patterns are different to yours. I have styles with varying
amounts of space before and almost none with space after, except for
heading 1 style.)

2004 still seems to do daft things when the top of each column contains
text in 2 different heading styles with different space before.
e.g If the left column starts in heading 2 with 6 points before and the
right column starts with heading 4 which has 4 points before then you'd
expect the baselines of each to be aligned after space before had been
ignored. Instead, the right column's 1st baseline is about 8 points
*below* the left's. No combination of preference settings of the
suppress before/after like 5.1 seem to make any difference.

Although setting "like 5.1" does fix another error where both columns
start in the same (body) style, as long as there is not another
continuous section break below it on the same page!!!!

Is there somewhere where the suppress space before rules are explained?

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi John-

I believe you hit on what is actually expected by the instructor &
definitely the preferable technique:

What seems to have muddied the water is the OP's reference to 'Horizontal
Line' which is an option in the Borders & Shading dialog box. I believe
there was a communications breakdown with the assignment referencing the
_term_ horizontal line as opposed to the _feature_ by that name.

Regards |:>)

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

That's what I thought, too. Microsoft is very consistent in its terminology
(these days...) but the rest of the industry _isn't_.

Oh, and Microsoft has never been known to use the "industry" term for
something if they can get away with using something different.

Microsoft has a separate User Interface design team that does most of its
research with "new users". So they end up asking people who "don't know how
to use the product" how things "should" work.

That, in turn, results in some seriously sad design decisions, which then
take years to correct. I believe that if you want to design a spanner, ask
a mechanic. If you want to design a word-processor, ask a technical writer!
Someone who struggles with the complexity of AOL web mail may not actually
be a "good" source of expertise for design decisions or terminology
concerning the world's most powerful and industrial-sized word-processor

Cheers

Hi John-

I believe you hit on what is actually expected by the instructor &
definitely the preferable technique:


What seems to have muddied the water is the OP's reference to 'Horizontal
Line' which is an option in the Borders & Shading dialog box. I believe
there was a communications breakdown with the assignment referencing the
_term_ horizontal line as opposed to the _feature_ by that name.

Regards |:>)

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[CyberTaz]

Gee, John-

Ya think?????? %)

I never could understand why that 'feature' was included in Borders &
Shading in the first place, when it actually creates a _new_ para & doesn't
border or shade _anything_, nor does it belong in the Format category at
all. Thought it was just me.

if you want to design a spanner, ask a mechanic

I wonder if that has any correlation with the origin of the term "monkey
wrench".

Regards |:>)

 

[planethoth]

Hey thanks for all your help, guys, I really appreciate it... the
instructor did not have clear instructions, and this helped me do it
right (I think!). Thanks again!

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Hi Elliott:

You're going to hate me

The magic incantation is "Keep With Next"

The algorithm Word uses to screw this up is so complex I have forgotten it
long ago (and I doubt if anyone ever understood it, particularly the guy who
WROTE it...)

But the shorthand version is "If WORD moves the paragraph to the next page,
it will (correctly) suppress space above. If YOU move the paragraph, it
(incorrectly) prints the space above."

So: Instead of using page or column breaks to move a paragraph over the
page, use keep with next on the paragraphs following it to force the group
over. Word then things the new page was its own idea, and correctly
suppresses space above.

To get this to work, you must of course switch OFF Widow/Orphan and switch
ON "Keep Lines Together" on the heading and the paragraphs following. That
doesn't worry me, because I run all my body text as Keep Together, I think
splitting sentences across pages is an abomination that plentiful cheap
paper should have rid the world of a few decades ago

So therefore I can set 2.5 x Font Height as space above on all my headings
and still have an even top margin.

It took me some mental gymnastics to get comfortable with this idea, since I
came from the old school of space before on all styles. But once I decided
that I had spent enough of my diminishing time on this earth chasing Word's
top margin, I re-configured my templates to use only space after on body
styles and life became a lot less busy

Cheers

Some older versions of Word have problems with Space Above. They should
suppress it if the line is the first line at the top of a page, but Word has
complex rules as to whether it actually *does*. The easy way to work around
this is to use Space Above only on "Heading" styles. Use only Space Below
to separate the lines on most other styles.

I thought I'd re-visit that in 2004. I always had trouble with 2 column
text.

(My style patterns are different to yours. I have styles with varying
amounts of space before and almost none with space after, except for
heading 1 style.)

2004 still seems to do daft things when the top of each column contains
text in 2 different heading styles with different space before.
e.g If the left column starts in heading 2 with 6 points before and the
right column starts with heading 4 which has 4 points before then you'd
expect the baselines of each to be aligned after space before had been
ignored. Instead, the right column's 1st baseline is about 8 points
*below* the left's. No combination of preference settings of the
suppress before/after like 5.1 seem to make any difference.

Although setting "like 5.1" does fix another error where both columns
start in the same (body) style, as long as there is not another
continuous section break below it on the same page!!!!

Is there somewhere where the suppress space before rules are explained?

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Elliott Roper]

Hi Elliott:

You're going to hate me

The magic incantation is "Keep With Next"

You're going to hate *me*. It didn't help, and it was never my problem,
because every single heading style here has 'keep with next' already.

The algorithm Word uses to screw this up is so complex I have forgotten it
long ago (and I doubt if anyone ever understood it, particularly the guy who
WROTE it...)

But the shorthand version is "If WORD moves the paragraph to the next page,
it will (correctly) suppress space above. If YOU move the paragraph, it
(incorrectly) prints the space above."

My problem was suppressing space above the second column after a
section break (continuous). It seems to work for pages, but not
columns. *With* Word choosing the column split.

So: Instead of using page or column breaks to move a paragraph over the
page, use keep with next on the paragraphs following it to force the group
over. Word then things the new page was its own idea, and correctly
suppresses space above.

Columns, not pages, was my beef. If I ever want to set a book with
facing pages properly aligned I use InDesign. Word does not do
typography at that level. Misaligned column tops is a different matter.
Word should do that properly. Chapter headings, pull quotes -- all
stuffo.

To get this to work, you must of course switch OFF Widow/Orphan and switch
ON "Keep Lines Together" on the heading and the paragraphs following. That
doesn't worry me, because I run all my body text as Keep Together, I think
splitting sentences across pages is an abomination that plentiful cheap
paper should have rid the world of a few decades ago

Tried with keep lines together on body text. It worked as advertised,
but still misaligned the second column unless I reduced the 'space
after' in the last paragraph before the section break to zero. (Which
might make it easier to debug it. (I sent an example to Jeffrey
Weston))

So therefore I can set 2.5 x Font Height as space above on all my headings
and still have an even top margin.

It took me some mental gymnastics to get comfortable with this idea, since I
came from the old school of space before on all styles. But once I decided
that I had spent enough of my diminishing time on this earth chasing Word's
top margin, I re-configured my templates to use only space after on body
styles and life became a lot less busy

I still have not surrendered. For example, if I do that I need a
special body style with less 'space after' in the para before starting
a list style. That is *far* too much hassle.

Now you have given me the 'keep lines together' trick for body text, it
makes knocking off the 'space after' on the heading or pull quote
before the section break that spans both columns reasonably
straight-forward. When the paragraph that spread across both columns
was being split, the misalignment was far too unpredictable.

 

[Elliott Roper]

Hi Elliott:

Naaahhh ... Have another of those cheeky little reds and read it AGAIN

The Keep With Next" Belongs on the paragraphs FOLLOWING the heading, down
far enough to throw the whole bunch over.

Any kind of "BREAK" is treated as a hard break by the algorithm and Word
will print the space above. You have to get the page throw or column throw
happening without a break

Send me a sample: There are various ways you can set things that will make
this not work: I need to see what you're really up to

You have mail if that .name thing is not a fake. Your old addy that I
had bounced.

Summary: It went *nutty*! You can't combine keep together and keep with
next on unrelieved body text. Anyhow, I have a workaround of my own
now, which is keep together and no space after on the last para of the
previous section. I would not like to explain that to a customer, but I
don't have to.