List Styles - I don't get it

[Vivian Carroll]

Where can a find a good tutorial on what List Styles really do for you and
how to create them? (Word 2002)

It seems as if the 3 default List Styles match 3 Outline Numbering gallery
choices--so what is the advantage of the List Styles? (to make it easy to
click the List Style from the Task Pane instead of opening the Bullets &
Numbering dialog?)

I decided to create a test List Style--one where I could define bullet
indentation the way I like it and always have it available (called "Vivian's
Bullets") no matter what showed in the Bullets gallery. However, after I
clicked Add in the List Styles tab, I couldn't figure out how to set the
indentation (I did see where to set the symbol). Under the Format button, I
had choices for Font, Numbering, and Shortcut Key--but Paragraph was grayed
out (same thing when I tried to create a numbered list style).

TIA,
Vivian Carroll

 

[Word Heretic]

G'day "Vivian Carroll" <[email protected]>,

I have several walk-throughs, explanations and tricks available from
my various books.

To just use them from teh GUI - see Word Spellbook. The use them from
VBA see the VBA Spellbook.

Where can a find a good tutorial on what List Styles really do for you and
how to create them? (Word 2002)

It seems as if the 3 default List Styles match 3 Outline Numbering gallery
choices--so what is the advantage of the List Styles? (to make it easy to
click the List Style from the Task Pane instead of opening the Bullets &
Numbering dialog?)

I decided to create a test List Style--one where I could define bullet
indentation the way I like it and always have it available (called "Vivian's
Bullets") no matter what showed in the Bullets gallery. However, after I
clicked Add in the List Styles tab, I couldn't figure out how to set the
indentation (I did see where to set the symbol). Under the Format button, I
had choices for Font, Numbering, and Shortcut Key--but Paragraph was grayed
out (same thing when I tried to create a numbered list style).

TIA,
Vivian Carroll

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
wordheretic.com

If my answers r 2 terse, ask again or hassle an MVP,
at least they get recognition for it then.
Lengthy replies offlist require payment.

 

[Vivian Carroll]

Thanks for replying. However, since you are remaining anonymous, it would be
good to know more about your books--such as ISBN number and publisher.

Do these books handle Word 2002? I am familiar with how numbering works in
the previous versions. I am having trouble in particular understanding the
new "List Styles" and the highlighting of the resulting numbers.

Vivian

 

[Word Heretic]

G'day "Vivian Carroll" <[email protected]>,

at the bottom of every message from me is a signature block containing
my URL.

www.wordheretic.com

Thanks for replying. However, since you are remaining anonymous, it would be
good to know more about your books--such as ISBN number and publisher.

Do these books handle Word 2002? I am familiar with how numbering works in
the previous versions. I am having trouble in particular understanding the
new "List Styles" and the highlighting of the resulting numbers.

Vivian

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
wordheretic.com

If my answers r 2 terse, ask again or hassle an MVP,
at least they get recognition for it then.
Lengthy replies offlist require payment.

 

[Word Heretic]

G'day "Vivian Carroll" <[email protected]>,

I do not discuss the new List Styles in XP.

They are a strange creature, technically speaking designed to make the
List Style king over its List Format, rather than the other way around
as in previous versions.

Thanks for replying. However, since you are remaining anonymous, it would be
good to know more about your books--such as ISBN number and publisher.

Do these books handle Word 2002? I am familiar with how numbering works in
the previous versions. I am having trouble in particular understanding the
new "List Styles" and the highlighting of the resulting numbers.

Vivian

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
wordheretic.com

If my answers r 2 terse, ask again or hassle an MVP,
at least they get recognition for it then.
Lengthy replies offlist require payment.

 

[Bruce Brown]

Vivian

Here are the results of some experimentation with List Styles that I
posted a while back:

To add to what Suzanne said about Word 2002's new-fangled List Styles,
the MVPs have good reason to be skeptical about the stability of such
styles -- and everything else about them.

To see why try this experiment. On a blank new doc type in three
paragraphs:

Dumb
Dumber
Dumbest

Select them. Go to Format>Numbering>List Styles and you'll see four
choices:

No List
1/1.1/1.1.1
1/a/i
Article/Section

Select Article/Section and click OK. Now you've got three numbered
paragraphs. Next let's generate a Table of Contents from them
(Alt-i-n-d-c). Under Options, try to find the style you've just
selected for inclusion in the TOC. Hmm, can't find it, you say?
Maybe that's because it isn't really a style? Or is it? Try to
uncheck Outline levels, check Table entry fields, uncheck Styles.
Hmm. Try 'em all. Try 'em all in reverse. Switch 'n' swap. Er,
sorry Charlie . . . looks like YOU'LL BE DOING ALL YOUR TOCS MANUALLY.

Go back and select the three paragraphs again, go to
Format>Numbering>List Styles again and click Modify. In the style
description, note the name of the base style: "No List." Hmm.

(At this point a quick trip to Help will probably steer us to a clear,
concise explanation of the new List Styles feature, won't it? Dream
on!)

Now click Format>Numbering>Customize. Note, after clicking More if
necessary, that the "Link Level to style" box says "(no style)." Oh,
well, we'll fix that -- we'll merely scroll down and find the style we
just selected, OK? Oh dear, it's not there!

Sad truth: although the list template can be named, the List Styles,
if they are in fact styles, CAN'T BE LINKED to the list template.
This will help tremendously when we try to fix everything with a dose
of VBA. Not.

But as long as we're on the Customize Outline Numbered List, which
Alan Taylor amusingly calls the "Big Board," maybe we can do something
(anything!) in spite of the impossibility of linking the List Styles
to the list template. How about changing the word Article to Popsicle
and changing the font to bold italic? Hey, it works! Break out the
champagne, right?

Wrong. With the three paragraphs still selected, now try changing
Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest to bold italic too. Uh oh! When we try to
modify the style's font without going back to the "Big Board" it
effects only Popsicle I, II and III, the paragraph numbers, but NOT
Dumb, Dumber, Dumbest, the text it's
supposed to be changing.

They can be formatted directly, of course, but the job is supposed to
be done with the style.

Almost forgot to mention another bonus: when you go to edit the style
(or non-style, as the case may be, who knows these higher mysteries?)
Paragraph is dimmed out. So are Tabs, Border, Language, and Frame.
Only Font, Numbering and Shortcut Key are available for editing.

Summary -- Here's what you CAN'T DO with List Styles:
- Generate TOC
- Link style to named list template
- Change text following paragraph number
- Edit style paragraph, tabs, border language or frame
- Find out anything worthwhile from Help
- More, much more

And you thought Microsoft had exhausted ways to make us feel stupid?

 

[Vivian Carroll]

Thank you Bruce, that was very helpful. No I don't feel so dumb, dumber, and
dumbest! Where can I find out what Suzanne had to say about it?

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Don't waste time looking for my post. I basically said the MVPs have pretty
much given up on List Styles because, as Bruce has demonstrated, they're (a)
undocumented and (b) flakey and therefore (c) not worth bothering with. We
haven't been able to figure out how they do anything you can't do with
paragraph styles linked to an outline numbering list template.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.mvps.org/word
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Vivian Carroll]

Thanks Suzanne!

Don't waste time looking for my post. I basically said the MVPs have pretty
much given up on List Styles because, as Bruce has demonstrated, they're (a)
undocumented and (b) flakey and therefore (c) not worth bothering with. We
haven't been able to figure out how they do anything you can't do with
paragraph styles linked to an outline numbering list template.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.mvps.org/word
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Word Heretic]

G'day "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <[email protected]>,

Maybe I should bother looking at em for you then

<starts reeling tongue back in from cheek>

<chuckles>

Why does anyone bother p***ing in the wind... maybe some curious
invection of God brings on the desire for absolute humidity <long, low
laughs>

Don't waste time looking for my post. I basically said the MVPs have pretty
much given up on List Styles because, as Bruce has demonstrated, they're (a)
undocumented and (b) flakey and therefore (c) not worth bothering with. We
haven't been able to figure out how they do anything you can't do with
paragraph styles linked to an outline numbering list template.

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
wordheretic.com

If my answers r 2 terse, ask again or hassle an MVP,
at least they get recognition for it then.
Lengthy replies offlist require payment.

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Hi All

I have to admit to having played briefly with List Styles and I think I know
what they are intended for - but since it is not something I've needed in my
document world view I don't know how well they do it ...

What I *think* they are for are those situations the lawyers often present
us with, where the same paragraph numbering sequence needs to apply to
paragraphs of different formatting styles. The List Style allows you to
define a numbering format (including font). You can apply the List Style
'over the top' of the paragraph style and it basically has the same effect
as adding direct numbering - but without the hit and miss of using the
toolbar buttons or B&N dialog. When you apply the List Style you initially
get the top level of a multi-level list, but you can change levels, without
otherwise making any changes to the paragraph style, by using the
promote/demote commands.

As far as linking is concerned, unlike paragraph styles, which are linked to
a specific list level, the list style defines a complete list template - all
levels. Although you are not prevented from linking the individual levels of
that list template to paragraph styles, I can't imagine that would get you
anywhere sensible.

So - bottom line is that the list style gives you a way of applying the same
list template to paragraphs, without them having to have the same paragraph
style. In some ways it seems much nearer to working as the 'name' of a list
template (at least, in allowing you to predictably apply an identifiable
list template) than the 'name' (LISTNUM field) tag, which is more like a
movable token.

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Hi Vivian

I decided to create a test List Style--one where I could define bullet
indentation the way I like it and always have it available (called "Vivian's
Bullets") no matter what showed in the Bullets gallery. However, after I
clicked Add in the List Styles tab, I couldn't figure out how to set the
indentation (I did see where to set the symbol). Under the Format button, I
had choices for Font, Numbering, and Shortcut Key--but Paragraph was grayed
out (same thing when I tried to create a numbered list style).

The left indent, tab position and text position would all be set as part of
the Numbering format. (Even in a Paragraph style, the numbering settings
will sooner or later override the paragraph settings for these
characteristics.)

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Vivian,

I decided to create a test List Style--one where I could define bullet
indentation the way I like it and always have it available (called "Vivian's
Bullets") no matter what showed in the Bullets gallery. However, after I
clicked Add in the List Styles tab, I couldn't figure out how to set the
indentation (I did see where to set the symbol). Under the Format button, I
had choices for Font, Numbering, and Shortcut Key--but Paragraph was grayed
out (same thing when I tried to create a numbered list style).

Just for the sake of completeness...

The indentation for a list is always controlled through the NUMBERING dialog
box (whether changing a list manually in the document or defining a List
stlye).

List and Table styles fall between character and paragraph styles. Text
formatted with them will show attributes from all three style types. A List
Style basically controls only the numbering, and nothing else. And since
Word97, numbering indents override paragraph indent settings.

FWIW, I don't have quite the same opinion about List Styles as some other
people. I find the number formatting for the entire document becomes more
"accessible" this way. If used correctly, the chances of over-loading a
document with stray list templates is reduced. But the principle of one list
template (=style) linked to one paragraph style still holds.
Mixing-and-matching list styles with various paragraph styles can work in
"simple" documents, but shouldn't be used in "professional" documents.

IOW, if your users are just going to be writing one-off throw-aways (letters,
memos) then a List Style is also an acceptable substitute for recording a
macro to provide a different number format from the defaults. And will have
the added advantage of (hopefully) keeping them out of the Bullets and
Numbering dialog box

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Sep 30 2003)
http://www.mvps.org/word

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[Word Heretic]

G'day "Margaret Aldis" <Margaret.Aldis@mvps.(SpamStopper)org.invalid>,

Bravissimo! Nice explanation Mags. FWIW, I think the last quoted
phrase below sums it all up nicely though

Hi All

I have to admit to having played briefly with List Styles and I think I know
what they are intended for - but since it is not something I've needed in my
document world view I don't know how well they do it ...

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
wordheretic.com

If my answers r 2 terse, ask again or hassle an MVP,
at least they get recognition for it then.
Lengthy replies offlist require payment.

 

[Bob S]

(lots snipped)

Summary -- Here's what you CAN'T DO with List Styles:
- Generate TOC
- Link style to named list template
- Change text following paragraph number
- Edit style paragraph, tabs, border language or frame
- Find out anything worthwhile from Help
- More, much more

I agree that List Styles are mysterious, but I think you are
over-reacting here. After all, you can't do any of the above things
with Character Styles either, but that doesn't mean that Character
Styles are bad ideas or that they deserve to be shunned and their
inventors castigated; it just means that Character Styles are not
Paragraph Styles.

List Styles are clearly also not Paragraph Styles.

We need to find out what List Styles CAN DO. They might just be useful
for something. Who would have thought that applying hidden font
formatting to an already-invisible paragraph mark would be useful? Or
a Text Box with no text? Or a space character of zero width?

Bob S

 

[Bruce Brown]

Bob

The usefulness of list styles is not really in question. Cindy Meister
put her finger on it when she said that list styles are great for
throwaway-type outlines of the kind you find in short memos, letters,
etc.

For an inexperienced user with bare-bones outlining requirements, list
styles are undoubtedly a godsend. As long as only one kind of outline
numbering is needed and it is consistent throughout, with no other
kinds of numbering thrown in, no need to edit the styles and no need
for a table of contents, the results may well turn out satisfactorily.

Anything more complex, proceed at your own risk.

As for your suggestion that I'm "over-reacting," I thought I was just
listing the results of a bunch of experiments with list styles.
Based on hard evidence, my conclusion was that for professional
documents with heavy-duty numbering requirements, list styles - like
toolbar numbering and bullets - are a bad idea. The very fact that you
can't do a table of contents with list styles, or even see them listed
in the style area next to the left margin, ought to raise red flags.

Margaret Aldis said the same thing in different words when she stated
that list styles were simply not in her "world document view."
Anything that's not in Margaret's world document view I don't want in
my world document view either!

By the way, why should it be the *user's* job to "find out what list
styles can do"? Why aren't they documented in Word 2002 Help? To add
a major feature like list styles without a word of explanation - how
can that possibly be justified? If anyone is to be castigated it
ought to be the decision-maker who said, "They'll figure it out."
Sure they will! Two years later, nobody knows from nothing - except to
avoid them. - Bruce

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Margaret Aldis said the same thing in different words when she stated
that list styles were simply not in her "world document view."
Anything that's not in Margaret's world document view I don't want in
my world document view either!

Hi Bruce

I'm flattered by the reference, but if you read the rest of that post you'll
see that I wasn't dismissing List Styles or other 'world views' in which
numbering is independent of paragraph style (isn't it you lawyers who do
that, anyway <g> ?)

There are certainly different behaviours, bugs and excitements to be
explored across the three different methods of tackling this requirement
(List Styles, LISTNUM fields or cascaded paragraph styles hanging off a base
numbered style). Look, for instance, at effects of promote/demote list level
with numbered paragraph styles (changes the paragaph style to match the
linked level) as against List Styles (changes the list level, leaves
paragraph style unchanged) - I'm sure someone somewhere wants the latter
effect.

As for the lack of any Help, I'm not sure whether we should curse MS roundly
for yet another gaping hole, or just be grateful they didn't try to explain
it (hint - look at the Help for "Troubleshoot bulleted and numbered lists"
for an example of the dumb advice we could have been given <sigh>).

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

it (hint - look at the Help for "Troubleshoot bulleted and numbered lists"

for an example of the dumb advice we could have been given <sigh>).

If you can. If I type "Troubleshoot bulleted lists" or "Troubleshoot
numbered lists" in the Type a question box, I get the same two topics,
neither of which of them is "Troubleshoot bulleted and numbered lists,"
though I do get that (on the second "page" of links) if I type in "Bullets
and numbering."

After finding the Help topic, I recognized a lot of the questionable answers
that have been given in this NG. <g>

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.mvps.org/word
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.