More Rules Puzzles? (Diane where R U?)

[Jason O]

Hi

Ok, I know I may be doing something wrong (& the Entourage Help file IS next
to useless). I am having a few difficulties with rules (yes, me as well).
My situation is as follows:

- 2 email accounts (1 ISP POP account & 1 .Mac IMAP account)
- With rule set to move incoming from IMAP inbox to Inbox (On my computer)

However I also have a rule set up to check the incoming for various criteria
('from' addresses & Subject keywords) & then assign the mail to a specified
project. However, it is not working.

My reading of previous posts begs a few questions:

1) Can mail already *moved* by a rule not then be assigned to a project by
another rule?

2) If the 'assign to project' rule was first, would everything then work?

3) If there are other rules *above* the rules mentioned earlier (eg. moving
sent items from IMAP sent to POP sent) will this affect the scenario even if
the items affected by this rule are different to the items affected by the
other two rules?

Jeeezus!...I've just re-read this post through & will be amazed if I get a
response A bit convoluted I know.

ANY advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Jason
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[Diane Ross [MVP]]

Ok, I know I may be doing something wrong (& the Entourage Help file IS next
to useless). I am having a few difficulties with rules (yes, me as well).
My situation is as follows:

- 2 email accounts (1 ISP POP account & 1 .Mac IMAP account)
- With rule set to move incoming from IMAP inbox to Inbox (On my computer)

Why not just set up the IMAP account as POP if you are going to move it all
to your computer anyway? Your .mac account can be set as POP.

However I also have a rule set up to check the incoming for various criteria
('from' addresses & Subject keywords) & then assign the mail to a specified
project. However, it is not working.

My reading of previous posts begs a few questions:

1) Can mail already *moved* by a rule not then be assigned to a project by
another rule?
No

2) If the 'assign to project' rule was first, would everything then work?

It should. If you manually run a rule and it works then the rule is OK. If
the rule does not run automatically then there is a conflict with another
rule.

3) If there are other rules *above* the rules mentioned earlier (eg. moving
sent items from IMAP sent to POP sent) will this affect the scenario even if
the items affected by this rule are different to the items affected by the
other two rules?

You lost me here.

 

[Jason O]

Why not just set up the IMAP account as POP if you are going to move it all
to your computer anyway? Your .mac account can be set as POP.

Cheers Diane (BIG Thanks for replying) - Didn't know this was possible (will
try setting .mac as POP soon, but don't hold your breath

No

Thanks - knowing that certainly helps when it comes to setting a hierarchy
for my rules.

It should. If you manually run a rule and it works then the rule is OK. If
the rule does not run automatically then there is a conflict with another
rule.

When you say *manually run a rule*, what do you mean?

You lost me here.

Sorry, I re-read it myself & was aware it was rather byzantine. I meant:

- I have a 'move from incoming IMAP to incoming POP' rule in place
- I also have a 'assign to project' rule in place

However:-
I have OTHER rules in place which affect SENT mails - (move sent itemns from
IMAP sent to POP sent).
As this rule only impacts 'sent' mail, my question is:- does it affect the
'assign to project' rule?

ANY advice greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

Jason
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[Phillip A. Harris]

Ok, I know I owe you specific examples of Rules, but the notion that a Rule
that "touches' a message, precludes other Rules from acting on that message
is, I think, limiting. , but if that's the way it works, so be it.

*But*, if the only rules you have (as I do) are "Move to Rules" and that's
it, then a rule should classify the Message as matching a Rule and Move the
message, and then move to the next message, or not match and continue to the
next rule, until the rules are exhausted, and then you move to the next
message..Repeat above... Is my logic broken here.

It is annoying that once a message is moved from the Exchange Inbox, via a
"move rule" to a Folder on my computer, it's flagged as having been
matched/actioned and no rules set up for that local folder (under POP MAIL)
are executed.

Based on the above, I am beginning to think their are some cases where the
classification mechanism "thinks" it has matched some part of the
classification argument, then fails the rest of the match and moves on, but
flags the message as having the rule applied and subsequent rules are
ignored.

I thought at first it was a function of the number of messages being
selected, but the pathology seems the same across any number of messages.

There are lot's of reasons people who don't want to/can't use POP, with
portability being one of them and Service Provider choice being the another.

Phil

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

When you say *manually run a rule*, what do you mean?

Control click on a selected message. Select Apple Rule and select the
particular rule you want to run.

Sorry, I re-read it myself & was aware it was rather byzantine. I meant:

- I have a 'move from incoming IMAP to incoming POP' rule in place
- I also have a 'assign to project' rule in place

However:-
I have OTHER rules in place which affect SENT mails - (move sent itemns from
IMAP sent to POP sent).
As this rule only impacts 'sent' mail, my question is:- does it affect the
'assign to project' rule?

No.

It sounds like your problem would be solved if you just made the account a
POP account.

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

Ok, I know I owe you specific examples of Rules, but the notion that a Rule
that "touches' a message, precludes other Rules from acting on that message
is, I think, limiting. , but if that's the way it works, so be it.

If you use the Mailing List Manager (MLM) you can select to run rules on
those messages moved by the MLM. This option is under the Advanced tab in
the MLM.

*But*, if the only rules you have (as I do) are "Move to Rules" and that's
it, then a rule should classify the Message as matching a Rule and Move the
message, and then move to the next message, or not match and continue to the
next rule, until the rules are exhausted, and then you move to the next
message..Repeat above... Is my logic broken here.

It is annoying that once a message is moved from the Exchange Inbox, via a
"move rule" to a Folder on my computer, it's flagged as having been
matched/actioned and no rules set up for that local folder (under POP MAIL)
are executed.

If using the MLM then your rules to move the messages does not work with
your exchange mail, then you could select messages and manually run your
rules after they have been moved to "On my Computer folder xx"

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

OK, will look at MLM's but I did some testing, and as I said previously I
think it's a classification bug.

Assume I have :-
All Rules
Move to Folder (A) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (B) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (D) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (E) if From (e-mail address removed)

If I select all the messages in the INBOX and apply All Rules, nothing
happens to messages (say) from (e-mail address removed).

If I manually select the message from (e-mail address removed) and apply All Rules,
nothing happens

If I manually select the message from (e-mail address removed) or select all messages
and select the rule - Move to Folder (D) if From (e-mail address removed), it works

If I manually select the message from (e-mail address removed) or select all messages
and sequentially apply each rule, it fails.

I have had a little luck figuring out which rules "trip" the classifier, but
nothing conclusive at this time as to a pattern or predictable string that
gets me into this scenario.

Thoughts??

Phil

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

Am I right in thinking MLM only work on recipient fields? Most of my "Move
Rules" are based on source not destination (As I am typically always the
recipient)..

Phil

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

Assume I have :-
All Rules
Move to Folder (A) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (B) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (D) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (E) if From (e-mail address removed)

If I select all the messages in the INBOX and apply All Rules, nothing
happens to messages (say) from (e-mail address removed).

If I manually select the message from (e-mail address removed) and apply All Rules,
nothing happens

If I manually select the message from (e-mail address removed) or select all messages
and select the rule - Move to Folder (D) if From (e-mail address removed), it works

This indicates a rule above is acting on the message. Try moving this rule
higher in the list.

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

Diane

What I do not understand from your responses on this thread, and the other
thread on this subject, is how, if *All* the rules are Move rules, can a
message be affected by a higher precedent rule, without that rule moving the
message itself!

I.e. If all the rules only have one action - IF {criteria met} THEN {Move
Message to another folder} ELSE Next Rule

How, in this case, can the message I care about still be in the Inbox?
Shouldn't the (higher) rule that touched/matched the message, have moved it,
based on that Rules Move Action????

I agree, erroneously, A higher placed rule is doing something, but it's a
bug otherwise the higher placed rule would do what it is configured to do,
and that is to move the message.

I *only* have Move rules, so irrespective of which other rule touches and
matches the incoming message, a move should take place.

Seriously, what am I missing here?????

Phil

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

What I do not understand from your responses on this thread, and the other
thread on this subject, is how, if *All* the rules are Move rules, can a
message be affected by a higher precedent rule, without that rule moving the
message itself!

I.e. If all the rules only have one action - IF {criteria met} THEN {Move
Message to another folder} ELSE Next Rule

Check your Criteria. You might want to select "if any criteria are met" to
see if that changes the results.

How, in this case, can the message I care about still be in the Inbox?
Shouldn't the (higher) rule that touched/matched the message, have moved it,
based on that Rules Move Action????

Did any rule or MLM rule place the message in the Inbox?

I agree, erroneously, A higher placed rule is doing something, but it's a
bug otherwise the higher placed rule would do what it is configured to do,
and that is to move the message.

I *only* have Move rules, so irrespective of which other rule touches and
matches the incoming message, a move should take place.

Seriously, what am I missing here?????

I'm not sure what is being overlooked. This is one of the situations were
hands on help is needed.

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

Answers to questions in-line..

Check your Criteria. You might want to select "if any criteria are met" to
see if that changes the results.

All of the Rules have a single criteria, so any vs. all is moot

Did any rule or MLM rule place the message in the Inbox?

Nope, just straight incoming messages - the Inbox is the Exchange Inbox,
i.e. Not local.

I'm not sure what is being overlooked. This is one of the situations were
hands on help is needed.

Or a situation where a bug is found......

Isn't that a possibility?

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

BTW, I'm still not sure what fields MLM's work against. To: & CC:? Or just
To: Of course as most of my rules are source based, I'm not sure it helps..

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

All of the Rules have a single criteria, so any vs. all is moot

The popup options for "From, any recipient, only recipient etc" can affect
how the rule works as well as the second popup for "contains, is, starts
with..."

Work with the rule that will not run manually to see if changes in criteria
affect how the rule works.

Or a situation where a bug is found......

Isn't that a possibility?

The rule could be corrupt but it doesn't sound like a bug. Deleting and
creating a new rule is the only way to fix a corrupt rule.

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

In-line

The popup options for "From, any recipient, only recipient etc" can affect
how the rule works as well as the second popup for "contains, is, starts
with..."

Work with the rule that will not run manually to see if changes in criteria
affect how the rule works.

As these are source based rules i.e. "From" is the only criteria, this is
moot I think.

I did play with "Contains" then the exact source address, vs. "Is" etc. and
this made no diff.

The rule could be corrupt but it doesn't sound like a bug. Deleting and
creating a new rule is the only way to fix a corrupt rule.

I deleted all rules and recreated them identically, and nothing changed, so
it looks a lot more like a bug..

 

[Paul Berkowitz]

All right, there are a few things that have not been mentioned that might
explain the behavior for you:

1) POP Rules act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in the Inbox (On My
Computer), NOT when it arrives in any other folder. Once it's moved to
another folder it won't be seen by rules.

2) IMAP Rules are meant to act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in
the IMAP INBOX, not when moved to another IMAP folder. (There was once a
time, way back in Entourage 2001, maybe early X, when IMAP messages would be
"discovered" in other IMAP folders and might disappear from there. Fixed
long ago.)

3) Exchange rules act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in the
Exchange Inbox.


SO: if an IMAP or Exchange Rule moves a message to a local folder other than
the Inbox, it will not be seen by POP rules. (It's possible that even
messages moved by a rule to the Inbox, as opposed to arriving there from the
server, won't be seen by POP rules.)

It's also possible that IMAP and Exchange rules might not be working
perfectly, particularly if you move them to a local folder. What's actually
happening (or is supposed to) behind the scenes is that the message is
_copied_ to the local folder specified by the rule, then the original
message downloaded to your IMAP or Exchange cache is marked for deletion,
then (eventually) that deletion action is synched to the server, which
deletes the message there.

I think it's possible that if you have a whole slew of IMAP or Exchange
rules, which take some time to run in sequence, that the Rules mechanism
might sometimes lose track of the message being filtered, if messages are
backed up. It's possible that it moves on to the next message downloaded
from the server if the current message in the cache loses its connection to
the server for just the instant when the mechanism is looking for it. I must
say I have never had this problem with my two (very different, different
ISPs and servers) IMAP accounts. Maybe Exchange is more prone...

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
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[Phillip A. Harris]

Hi Paul

Thought's in-line..

All right, there are a few things that have not been mentioned that might
explain the behavior for you:

1) POP Rules act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in the Inbox (On My
Computer), NOT when it arrives in any other folder. Once it's moved to
another folder it won't be seen by rules.
Understood..


2) IMAP Rules are meant to act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in
the IMAP INBOX, not when moved to another IMAP folder. (There was once a
time, way back in Entourage 2001, maybe early X, when IMAP messages would be
"discovered" in other IMAP folders and might disappear from there. Fixed
long ago.)
Ok


3) Exchange rules act on a message ONLY when it first arrives in the
Exchange Inbox.

This is my scenario and my understanding of the rules mechanism.

SO: if an IMAP or Exchange Rule moves a message to a local folder other than
the Inbox, it will not be seen by POP rules. (It's possible that even
messages moved by a rule to the Inbox, as opposed to arriving there from the
server, won't be seen by POP rules.)

Not a problem as all rules are defined under Mail(Exchange), and are
intended to applied to messages in the Exchange Server Inbox..

It's also possible that IMAP and Exchange rules might not be working
perfectly, particularly if you move them to a local folder. What's actually
happening (or is supposed to) behind the scenes is that the message is
_copied_ to the local folder specified by the rule, then the original
message downloaded to your IMAP or Exchange cache is marked for deletion,
then (eventually) that deletion action is synched to the server, which
deletes the message there.

Which makes sense, given the way IMAP and Exchange work. I am moving
messages to local folders and I could see how the delete on synch could get
screwed up, except I am thinking that it would not lead to an unmoved
message as much as a duplicate message in the local (and Exchange) Inbox,
perhaps.

I think it's possible that if you have a whole slew of IMAP or Exchange
rules, which take some time to run in sequence, that the Rules mechanism
might sometimes lose track of the message being filtered, if messages are
backed up. It's possible that it moves on to the next message downloaded
from the server if the current message in the cache loses its connection to
the server for just the instant when the mechanism is looking for it. I must
say I have never had this problem with my two (very different, different
ISPs and servers) IMAP accounts. Maybe Exchange is more prone...

I, given Diane's comments, changed all destination based rules to mlm's
(which isn't ideal as you can't differentiate between to: and cc to reduce
the overall size of the rule list. I went from 30 rules down to 22.

My source based move rules still exhibit inconsistent behavior.

This seems to happen on the local corp. network as well as across a VPN, so
I don't know that the delay in fetching messages is a problem, although I
could see how the cache being updated could lead to a delay if the cache
needs to be re-primed against the remote inbox and the server get busy.

I do think it's a "miss" situation as opposed to a "fail" as (I stated in
the very first message on this topic) it is not a 100% failure rate, rather
than a very high % chance of it happening given various conditions. I.e. An
Entourage bug. I work on s/w dev for a living, so I know the symptoms -
inconsistent behavior, non-deterministic pathology etc..

Thanks for the input.

Phil

 

[Phillip A. Harris]

P.s. Mail.app configured with an exchange account, with Identical rules,
works fine. So I think I can rule out server and link issues...

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

I, given Diane's comments, changed all destination based rules to mlm's
(which isn't ideal as you can't differentiate between to: and cc to reduce
the overall size of the rule list. I went from 30 rules down to 22.

Have you considered using categories to further help reduce the rule list?
See the example on using categories here:

<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/rules/example/rule002.html>

From a previous email, you listed your rules:

Move to Folder (A) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (B) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (D) if From (e-mail address removed)
Move to Folder (E) if From (e-mail address removed)

I might suggest assigning a general category "work" to your contacts. Mail
could be sent to a folder "Work" then further sorted using a custom view for
individual mail.

From is in category Work
Move message Work

Use a custom view to sort individually. See the example custom view here to
get you started:

<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/custom_views/index.html#friends>

Hope this helps.

 

[Diane Ross [MVP]]

P.s. Mail.app configured with an exchange account, with Identical rules,
works fine. So I think I can rule out server and link issues...

This would then point to the way Entourage is handling the messages. I'm not
sure if timeout problems are considered bugs, but regardless of the
classification of the problem there doesn't seem to be a clear solution.