Would you like Help in Here? How to make sure you get it!

J

John McGhie

Seriously -- Would you like us to give you all the help we can with your
question?

Then post a REAL email address :)

Seriously!

People come in here because they enjoy conversing with folks all around the
world. I'm in Sydney: I have some people coming to stay this afternoon whom
I met on these groups about ten years ago: they're from San Francisco.

Meeting you as a real person is why we do what we do in here. Nobody gets
paid for this. None of us work for Microsoft. (That's not entirely true
these days: there are three or four Microsoft staffers cruising this group
as part of their official duties: you will see that they identify themselves
quite prominently in their posts.)

Because "meeting" you is the REASON most of us are here, we're not going to
try very hard if you won't permit that. After all, how hard do you try to
please those infernal people who ring up trying to sell you things while
you're eating your dinner? Same principle. There's another good reason:
The Microsoft people in here will address (some!!) issues directly with you,
if you use a real email address.

But when we're handling hundreds (or thousands...) of messages a day,
fiddling around de-coding a Spamangled email address is just too hard :)

Most folks by now have their inboxes fairly effectively anti-spammed one way
or another. I see maybe three to five spam messages a week, and I post my
real email address in this group ten or 20 times a day.

Most properly customer-responsive ISPs provide anti-spam and anti-virus
facilities these days: the ones that don't, probably won't be with us much
longer. Sometimes you need to turn that on: it wouldn't hurt to have a look
at your ISP's help pages for details. Because I need Industrial-Strength
anti-spamming, so I use a commercial anti-spamming anti-virusing email
provider -- http://www.fastmail.fm -- or you may wish to investigate these
guys http://www.spamcop.net/

My point is simply this: Those of us who do not work for Microsoft who are
in here nearly every day helping folks tend to look for four things before
deciding to go the final mile for you:

1) The explicit versions of your application and operating system. E.g.
"Word version 11.1 (Build 090910) on System Version: Mac OS X 10.3.6
(7R28)". You get get the first from Word>About and the second from
Finder>About This Mac. If we don't know which of the 29 versions of Word
that we support you are using, we sometimes cannot help you at all, because
the answer varies depending on what you're using and what you're doing.

2) A Subject line that tells us what your problem is. "Heeelllpppp!!" is
not a "great" subject line. I know that's how you're feeling, but it makes
us feel that way too. To help you, we need to know what's wrong, not how
you're feeling :) How about "Disk full error on save" -- that says it all.
Each of us is specialised in one or more areas: for example, I know nothing
about Mail merge and I won't touch questions that concern it. I scan each
group looking for the stuff I do specialise in, and I tackle those questions
first. I won't read the text of your message, only the Subject line. If I
don't see from your Subject line that your question is within my area of
expertise, I will leave your post and move on. If I still have some energy
left after handling the specialist questions, I "might" come back to this
group and read the stuff I left before. I "might"... Then again, I have a
day job AND a life, and neither of them are working for Microsoft. So I
probably "won't". Your call...

3) A description that tells us (in concise detail...) what you are trying
to do, what happened, and what you have already tried to do to fix it.
PLEASE remember that we can't see your screen from here! Put it in words!
Oh -- and please don't send us ANY screen-shots or attachments. Not EVER!
Not even "just this once". We WON'T "forgive the attachment this time."
Truth to tell, most of us won't even know you've done it. Here's why: your
message will go straight into our spam filter, and most of us will never be
aware that you sent anything at all. If we need a sample, we will ask for
it. If your email address works... Your call...

4) A live email address so we can get back to you. If I see your message
and need a little more information to answer, I will simply hit "Reply". If
the email address comes back as "(e-mail address removed)" or some other
anti-spam address -- nnnnnyeah!! Too hard! Move on to the next post. If
you really want an answer, you will post back in a week or so saying "Why
hasn't anyone answered my post?" :)

Of course, these things are simply suggestions. We would like to help you
better. We would like you to help us do that. But if you prefer to do
something else instead, no biggie... We can help the other folks instead.

Cheers all

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

John, I agree with most everything you've said, but *not* the bit about the
real email address. You should be replying to the newsgroup, anyhow,
instead of the person, so that the complete discussion is kept in one place
and information is archived for the public (and so that I learn from it :).
And the traffic on the Mac word group is not hundreds per day. Hit Reply to
Newsgroup, that's the default anyhow. If they don't come back to the ng to
answer, it certainly isn't worth your time.

And it is not logical to say 'don't protect your address' when that is the
best way to stay one step ahead of the spammers, which is difficult enough.

--
Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/>
What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ:


Seriously -- Would you like us to give you all the help we can with your
question?

Then post a REAL email address :)
 
J

JE McGimpsey

Phillip M. Jones said:
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">

And, I'd suggest, DON'T POST IN HTML!
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

JE said:
And, I'd suggest, DON'T POST IN HTML!

I don't normally post in HTML.

But you said you'd like to get to know the people that posted to the
group. so I nt a message with my pic in it so you could see me first
hand :)

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net>
 
J

JE McGimpsey

Phillip M. Jones said:
But you said you'd like to get to know the people that posted to the
group. so I nt a message with my pic in it so you could see me first
hand :)

Ah, that's ok, then.

I just never got past the first few lines...
 
C

Corentin Cras-Méneur

But when we're handling hundreds (or thousands...) of messages a day,
fiddling around de-coding a Spamangled email address is just too hard :)

That's not going to happen as far as I am concerned. Last time I did that, I
had to abandon my e-mail address because I was completely drowned under spam.
You're soooooo lucky you only receive 5 a week.

I'm really sorry John, but I'll keep the NoSpam in my address. I guess if you
don;t know me and really need to contact me, you'll read the signature or
figure out by yourself that you have to remove NoSpam from my address.....


Corentin
 
C

Corentin Cras-Méneur

I don't normally post in HTML.

But you said you'd like to get to know the people that posted to the
group. so I nt a message with my pic in it so you could see me first
hand :)

You sure don't need to post in html to include a binary with a post.
Unfortunately, in most groups binary attachments are banned (it's a pain in
some news clients and it takes too much bnadwidth when you're on dial-up).

Corentin
 
J

JE McGimpsey

Corentin Cras-Méneur said:
That's not going to happen as far as I am concerned. Last time I did that, I
had to abandon my e-mail address because I was completely drowned under spam.
You're soooooo lucky you only receive 5 a week.

I get 1000-2000 spams a day, but fortunately SpamSieve catches almost
everything - like John, I see about 5 a week that make it through. I go
through the spams occasionally to catch false positives, but usually
only when I'm expecting something from someone.
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

Corentin said:
You sure don't need to post in html to include a binary with a post.
Unfortunately, in most groups binary attachments are banned (it's a pain in
some news clients and it takes too much bnadwidth when you're on dial-up).

Corentin
How about this then:

Goto
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> and you can see me in my
"Sunday go To meetin' Clothes",

and read a lttle about me and associations I belong to.

This way its up to you to decide whether you want to view info.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net>
 
C

Corentin Cras-Méneur

JE McGimpsey said:
I get 1000-2000 spams a day, but fortunately SpamSieve catches almost
everything - like John, I see about 5 a week that make it through. I go
through the spams occasionally to catch false positives, but usually
only when I'm expecting something from someone.

I see what you mean. I also use SpamSieve - and e-mail aliases -and
filters. I just don't want to pack up my mailboxes with spam (they're
not that big) and have to gop through thousands of junk mail looking for
false positives...


Interestingly, MS France posts a list of "rules and regulations" every
months on the French MS newsgroups. Amongst the differnet topics they
cover, they strongly advicse people to put a NoSPam or something similar
in your address :->


Corentin
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Corentin:

That's not going to happen as far as I am concerned. Last time I did that, I
had to abandon my e-mail address because I was completely drowned under spam.
You're soooooo lucky you only receive 5 a week.

I said I only "see" five a week. Actually, it's not usually that high: this
past seven days I have seen three.

However, I just checked my email provider: in the past 24 hours, it bounced
something like 1,500 messages into the bit bucket. From my recollection,
that's a pretty light day :)

I never saw them. I never even had to expend bandwidth on them: they just
got vaporised at the server. With the email host I use, they use one of
these domain filters: the mail server simply drops the connection whenever
an offending server tries to talk to it.

Jeez, guys. You are professionals: get yourself an industrial-strength
de-spamming filter -- this is not an unsolvable problem!
I guess if you
don;t know me and really need to contact me, you'll read the signature

Well, I DO know you. But if I didn't, you guess wrong :) I would simply
"Reply". If the reply bounces, well, the bounce goes into the bit bucket
too, and I never know :)

Cheers

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410
 
J

John McGhie

Jeez, Phil:

You're a big lad, aren't you? Remind me to be especially polite to you in
the future :)

Cheers


How about this then:

Goto
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> and you can see me in my
"Sunday go To meetin' Clothes",

and read a lttle about me and associations I belong to.

This way its up to you to decide whether you want to view info.

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410
 
B

Bill Weylock

Ouch!!

I did not read the whole thread carefully, John.

Now that I have, I see that other people made my points a lot more
succinctly.

Sorry to pile on at such length.


Best,


- Bill


Jeez, Phil:

You're a big lad, aren't you? Remind me to be especially polite to you in
the future :)

Cheers




Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003
 
C

Corentin Cras-Méneur

Hi John,
I said I only "see" five a week. Actually, it's not usually that high: this
past seven days I have seen three.


In this case, I see very few a day, all the other ones are filtered
through SpamSeive.
I still have to review them in case of false negatives though (no filter
is perfect). I'm a lot more worried about false positives than false
negatives.
However, I just checked my email provider: in the past 24 hours, it bounced
something like 1,500 messages into the bit bucket. From my recollection,
that's a pretty light day :)

I never saw them. I never even had to expend bandwidth on them: they just
got vaporised at the server. With the email host I use, they use one of
these domain filters: the mail server simply drops the connection whenever
an offending server tries to talk to it.

I don't have access to the mail servers. I cannot create any rule to
bounce them or trash them on the server side. Therefore, all spam end up
in my mailbox, filling it up slowly. Not all my accounts have unlimited
capacity. Not all my mailboxes offer IMAP either, allowing me to trash
them on the server.
Jeez, guys. You are professionals: get yourself an industrial-strength
de-spamming filter -- this is not an unsolvable problem!


On my Mac I use SpamSeive, and as I was saying, there is nothing I can
do on the server side.
Well, I DO know you. But if I didn't, you guess wrong :) I would simply
"Reply". If the reply bounces, well, the bounce goes into the bit bucket
too, and I never know :)

<just a joke>
:) Jeez John. You are a professional: create yourself an
industrial-strength filter to sort the bounced e-mails
;-))))))))
</just a joke>

Again, if someone doesn't go through the effort of editing the e-mail
address, then the question probably wasn't so important.... Adding a
spoofer to the e-mail address is becoming standard on usenet (even MS
recommends it in the .fr groups).

Corentin
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

My problem with spam filtering is that the filtering uends up putting
most of my legit mail in the bit bucket.

Anyway, I along with Corentin had to more or less abandon an email
address. and Create a new one. I've left my old address active just to
let it collect the Spam. as many as 100 pieces a day on a bad day and
maybe 20 on a good.

I go to that email box through a web Mail feature my ISP has and scan
Titles. If its a legit title I ead it there and if need I send it to the
other email address.

My newsgroups I ead also oint to this old email address. Its a good
thing for a while every other newspost was about that free patch form
Microsoft that was actually a virus. I still receive some of those from
my old address. While it doesn't directl affect me. It downloaded to my
computer and passed along to PC folks without my knowing.

If you want to really get hold of me add a one before the at symbol in
my email address.

Lately, even in my good email address I've been getting a few pieces of
the Nigerian money scam spam. And they title it in such a way That I
don't now if its spam or not.

John said:
Hi Corentin:




I said I only "see" five a week. Actually, it's not usually that high: this
past seven days I have seen three.

However, I just checked my email provider: in the past 24 hours, it bounced
something like 1,500 messages into the bit bucket. From my recollection,
that's a pretty light day :)

I never saw them. I never even had to expend bandwidth on them: they just
got vaporised at the server. With the email host I use, they use one of
these domain filters: the mail server simply drops the connection whenever
an offending server tries to talk to it.

Jeez, guys. You are professionals: get yourself an industrial-strength
de-spamming filter -- this is not an unsolvable problem!




Well, I DO know you. But if I didn't, you guess wrong :) I would simply
"Reply". If the reply bounces, well, the bounce goes into the bit bucket
too, and I never know :)

Cheers


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net>
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Bill:

I was very surprised and a little alarmed that you are telling people to use
their real email addresses in newsgroups and to get a new ISP or a
good/better spam filter if they have problems with that. Although you
certainly did NOT say this, it does sound a bit as if you are also saying that
not using real email addresses invites marginalization within the newsgroup.

You're right, I didn't say that, or even mean that. But I can see how
people might take it that way, so I am glad you pointed out that I didn't
say it: let me add that I didn't mean it either :)
These days I think there is also an incentive to be listed as MVP, although I
don¹t think I would ever make that level of commitment and have stopped trying
to understand all of Word (as I pretty well did back in 5.1 and 6.blah days).

Yeah, apparently there is :) I can also confirm that there's definitely an
informal "performance standard" required to *remain* an MVP :) The award
is given annually, and getting re-awarded is a bit more difficult than
getting nominated for the first time!

But I can tell you that the vast majority of the MVPs I have met would still
be here whether there was an incentive or not. I've been around as an MVP
for a while now, and I've met most of them.

Although as you quite properly point out, to be considered a "real" founding
member MVP you need a numeric CompuServe email address... I don't have one
of those :)

But the "incentive" such as it is basically amounts to a few trinkets. I
think for nearly all of us, the real rewards are the ones you mention drew
you in: the good feeling that comes from helping people in the same way as
people helped me when I was getting into the industry. The people who
become MVPs imagining a Pandora's box of "rewards" will open before their
eyes don't seem to have much staying power: I have seen a few of those come
and go over the years :)
I hope you
MVPs will not start making rules and putting up bars to getting help.

Oh hell, I hope not, too! Every now and again someone has some kind of
mental melt-down and starts making noises like that. We have so far managed
to weed that sort of thing out very promptly each time anyone has tried it
on. These groups are hosted by Microsoft for the benefit of all who wish to
come here, whether they use Microsoft software or not, whether they say nice
things about Microsoft or not. That's one of the most sacred principles of
the entire program: it's never likely to be changed.
I also hope that this isn¹t going to get me on your S list

Nup! I much enjoy people who disagree with me. If they didn't, I would
never learn anything. If I were to say one thing to you, it would be this:
I need you a hell of a lot more than you need me. I derive great
satisfaction from posting in here -- it's my main hobby. I need a steady
supply of questions to make that possible. If you weren't here, I would
then be "totally" useless :)
This wasn¹t your issues, but I also do like posting in html.
Grrrrr....

If it gives
problems, I think you can get an email reader that handles it very well. One
of them is called... Decoupage? Camouflage? Persiflage? Whatever... It works
at least as well as those spam filters.

Paul will be along in a minute to trash you!!

Have a great new year!

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410
 
B

Bill Weylock

Yes! :)

Happy New Year to you too!


Best,


- Bill


Hi Bill:



You're right, I didn't say that, or even mean that. But I can see how
people might take it that way, so I am glad you pointed out that I didn't
say it: let me add that I didn't mean it either :)


Yeah, apparently there is :) I can also confirm that there's definitely an
informal "performance standard" required to *remain* an MVP :) The award
is given annually, and getting re-awarded is a bit more difficult than
getting nominated for the first time!

But I can tell you that the vast majority of the MVPs I have met would still
be here whether there was an incentive or not. I've been around as an MVP
for a while now, and I've met most of them.

Although as you quite properly point out, to be considered a "real" founding
member MVP you need a numeric CompuServe email address... I don't have one
of those :)

But the "incentive" such as it is basically amounts to a few trinkets. I
think for nearly all of us, the real rewards are the ones you mention drew
you in: the good feeling that comes from helping people in the same way as
people helped me when I was getting into the industry. The people who
become MVPs imagining a Pandora's box of "rewards" will open before their
eyes don't seem to have much staying power: I have seen a few of those come
and go over the years :)


Oh hell, I hope not, too! Every now and again someone has some kind of
mental melt-down and starts making noises like that. We have so far managed
to weed that sort of thing out very promptly each time anyone has tried it
on. These groups are hosted by Microsoft for the benefit of all who wish to
come here, whether they use Microsoft software or not, whether they say nice
things about Microsoft or not. That's one of the most sacred principles of
the entire program: it's never likely to be changed.


Nup! I much enjoy people who disagree with me. If they didn't, I would
never learn anything. If I were to say one thing to you, it would be this:
I need you a hell of a lot more than you need me. I derive great
satisfaction from posting in here -- it's my main hobby. I need a steady
supply of questions to make that possible. If you weren't here, I would
then be "totally" useless :)


Paul will be along in a minute to trash you!!

Have a great new year!




Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003
 

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