confused about word templates

[mack]

Hi,
Thank you for your replies. Bill, thank you for saying such a nice
thing, even though it's totally untrue, it helps. I believe I must be
doing something really dumb here! I have tried positioning the
insertion point at random in various paragraphs, (first checking them
to make sure that they are in fact body text); and also highlighting
the whole paragraph. I don;t know if the fact that they were originally
TextEdit files saved in another font (but in Word format in every
case) could have anything to do with it.

I have tried:- 1. Format>paragraph>Indents and spacing> alignment-
left>Outline level>body text>indentation...left 2cm, right 0cm Special>
first line by 1.27 cm; Spacing before 0pt; after 6pt line spacing
single (at least line spacing switches to 'double' right away when I
ask it to) . Tabs> default tab stops 1.27 cm alignment left, leader
none, tab stop position>blank

I also have set at the same time:- Format>style>styles box>'body text'
is highlighted. Based on 'no style'

Font- Default Times New Roman 14pt, indent left 2cm, first line 1.27cm,
left-aligned, line spacing single, space after 6pt, widow/orphan
control. Apply to template, and automatically update are turned OFF.
Some of my paragraphs on page 4 are indented (they've got little dotted
lines in front of them, so I suppose this is left over from when I
typed them out by hand in text Edit. I have a feeling that this might
be a tricky problem, so, unless the answer is really easy, I promise I
will send all the above info to microsoft and let them worry about it.
Thank you for suffering me.

P.S. I will try to get this fixed first before I worry about the page
number oddity.

 

[Bill Weylock]

Mack -

You¹re welcome.

I take it you are trying to indent all of your paragraphs?

If you are sure that they are all set to Body Text, and if you have used
Daiya¹s suggestion and applied the ResetPara command to them, you are in
better shape than you know.

Do this:

Select any paragraph with the Body Text style.

To be sure you have everything actually apply to the paragraph, select the
entire paragraph (including the paragraph symbol at the end). Do not simply
put a cursor into the middle of it.

Make whatever changes to it you want. I suggest you go into paragraph
formatting and make all the changes at once. Do not keep looking to see if
they are taking or happening. They will.

When the paragraph is exactly the way you like it, you are going to use
another hidden command. It is called Redefine Style.

To get to that command, to to Tools/Customize/Toolbars-Menus.

When you get the dialog, click on Commands at the top of the dialog. You¹ll
see a list of menu items in the left box. Click on Format. Go to the right
box. A bunch of options will have appeared in it. Click gently on any one of
them to highlight it, and hit ³r² on your keyboard. A few commands down,
you¹ll see Redefine Style. Drag it to your formatting toolbar so it will be
there forever.

Go back to the paragraph you just customized to the exact format you want
for every paragraph.

Highlight that entire paragraph (including the paragraph symbol at the end).
With the paragraph highlighted, click on Redefine Style in your toolbar.

Done.


Best,


- Bill

Hi,
Thank you for your replies. Bill, thank you for saying such a nice
thing, even though it's totally untrue, it helps. I believe I must be
doing something really dumb here! I have tried positioning the
insertion point at random in various paragraphs, (first checking them
to make sure that they are in fact body text); and also highlighting
the whole paragraph. I don;t know if the fact that they were originally
TextEdit files saved in another font (but in Word format in every
case) could have anything to do with it.

I have tried:- 1. Format>paragraph>Indents and spacing> alignment-
left>Outline level>body text>indentation...left 2cm, right 0cm Special>
first line by 1.27 cm; Spacing before 0pt; after 6pt line spacing
single (at least line spacing switches to 'double' right away when I
ask it to) . Tabs> default tab stops 1.27 cm alignment left, leader
none, tab stop position>blank

I also have set at the same time:- Format>style>styles box>'body text'
is highlighted. Based on 'no style'

Font- Default Times New Roman 14pt, indent left 2cm, first line 1.27cm,
left-aligned, line spacing single, space after 6pt, widow/orphan
control. Apply to template, and automatically update are turned OFF.
Some of my paragraphs on page 4 are indented (they've got little dotted
lines in front of them, so I suppose this is left over from when I
typed them out by hand in text Edit. I have a feeling that this might
be a tricky problem, so, unless the answer is really easy, I promise I
will send all the above info to microsoft and let them worry about it.
Thank you for suffering me.

P.S. I will try to get this fixed first before I worry about the page
number oddity.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[John McGhie]

Yep. Quite correct. I suggest Edit>Clear formats to new users such as Mack
because it's easy to find, remember, and understand. ResetPara is difficult
to find, remember and understand.

Most users are not aware of all the different kinds of formatting and which
ones ResetPara hits and which it doesn't.

For YOU I woulda suggested ResetPara

Yep. Except, won't that reset the paragraphs to Normal? I'd prefer the use
of the ResetPara command, which removes direct paragraph formatting, but not
character formatting, and does not change the base style. I probably should
have had you wipe all the direct paragraph formatting as the very first
step.

I appear to have cmd-opt-q set as a shortcut for ResetPara, but not sure I
trust that to be the default instead of my selection... Test it on one
paragraph? (You can dig the command out of Tools | Customize Toolbars,
select All Commands in the left column, find ResetPara alphabetically in
right column, drag to toolbar).

Daiya

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Bill Weylock]

John -


If there is anything complex that can be found, I believe Mark will find it.

I¹ve been trying to scare him away from your template for days with no
success.

This is going to be one bloody well-formatted book!


Best,


- Bill

Yep. Quite correct. I suggest Edit>Clear formats to new users such as Mack
because it's easy to find, remember, and understand. ResetPara is difficult
to find, remember and understand.

Most users are not aware of all the different kinds of formatting and which
ones ResetPara hits and which it doesn't.

For YOU I woulda suggested ResetPara

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[mack]

Thank you. I must STILL be doing something obviously dumb. I found
theReset Para command and dragged it into the toolbar. Dragged two of
them into the toolbar, one for 'save in 'normal'; and one for 'save in-
'Book T (v).doc'.

I tried 'cmnd-A' to select everything (i think it only does one section
(?); and I tried highlighting a paragraph (including the paragraph
'reverse P' symbol at the end of the line. I selected random paragraphs
also. For example, a two-line paragraph on page 238:-

"You stopped Graygoo from using our Dreamchanger in the
Reverse Energy Machine" added Skip. (may have to
make my margins & indents smaller here)

The first word, "You", is indented 2cm. I would like it to be indented
a further .75 of a cm (I've got it set for 1.27 at the moment)

If I go into Format>Style>body text>Modify.. it says "left
(aligned),outline level body text, indentation left 2cm, right 0 cm
first line .75 cm (I just changed it), spacing before 0pt, after 6pt,
single. that's without touching reset para or redefine style.

If I look in format> paragraph, it also says I already have a
first-line indent.

The blue tab markers? The bottom two are at 2cm, and the top one is
exactly .75 in from them, but no soap. I'm obviously making some
beginner's mistake. I notice the reset para and redefine style buttons
don't stay gray, like the others seem to, but from what I can
understand, my paragraphs and body text IS set already for a first-line
indent.

 

[mack]

P.S. I've just noticed that pp 11-13 are indented for each paragraph.
It looks like a carry over from when I typed it in text Edit. The
paragraphs are still styled in body text, with the same setup features
as the others. I don't think this is relevant... but I thought I should
say, just in case it is.

 

[Bill Weylock]

Mark -

I¹m going to snap at you, so brace yourself. We have to simplify and get
this finished before I jump out a window. Luckily I do not live on a high
floor, but after a few more exchanges like this I may move to one and then
jump.

You are corresponding with at least three people in this thread.

People have given you multiple hints on more than one subject.

You have to tell us what you are trying to do, what result you wanted, how
what is happening differs from that result, and what question you are
actually asking.

For some reason, I guess to prove I¹m a good guy or something (an image
these paragraphs have probably trashed), I have just spent 10 minutes
reading and re-reading this post and a couple others trying to figure out
what you¹re talking about and trying to tease an actual question out of this
welter of confused detail.

Instead of quoting a paragraph from your book (because you think we need
help understanding what paragraph, first word, or indent mean?) you might
clear up those items above in red. At the risk of sounding harsh, I have to
tell you that you are making this too much work for other people and are not
working hard enough yourself on asking clear questions.

FINALLY I have decided you selected every paragraph and tried to use the
paragraph formatting dialog?

Could that be it?

Don¹t.

I also just decided I was being too hard on you and went back through a 4th
(!) time. You¹re trying to tell us you applied the formatting in the dialog
and saw no change after clicking OK? Don¹t you think saying that would have
been a help?

Why you have decided what you see is wrong, I still don¹t know. Let¹s go
back a step or two:

Please do what John said. He was right. The other was too complicated. Let¹s
go through that.

Do all of this in Page Layout View. Before you decide something does not
look right, hide the paragraph markers (Cmd-8) to be sure that¹s not part of
the problem.

Select All with Cmd-A. It selects the whole document, by the way. Use
Edit/Clear/Formatting. Click anyplace to deselect all.

Go through and just change manually any paragraph that looks wrong. That can
only be the result of some kind of import from TextEdit or a manual key
stroke on your part. If you want a little adventure, you might try using
Edit/Replace for any oddity (like extra spaces at the beginning of
paragraphs) that crops up more than once or twice.

When EVERY paragraph looks the same as every other (yes, INCLUDING chapter
headings, which you¹ll have to change later), select ONE paragraph, using
the mouse and the shift key.

NOW use the paragraph formatting command (Cmd-Opt-M) to get that dialog.
Make your indentation settings, which are fine and should work. See if the
other settings are what you want. Click OK.

If the paragraph still does not look the way you want, don¹t do anything
else, ask a question here and don¹t give too much detail. Think about it,
form a coherent simple question, and post it. Don¹t touch this thing again
till you have an answer. But it should work this time.

If (and ONLY if) it does look finally like the paragraph you want for your
book, select all again. Apply Body Text style to EVERYTHING. The paragraph
you just ³fixed² will change. Don¹t worry about it.

Click anyplace to deselect all.

NOW. Open the Body Text style. This time and this time ONLY click
³automatically update². Close the dialog.

Find the paragraph you worked with a moment ago and select it ONLY.

NOW use the paragraph formatting command (Cmd-Opt-M) to get that dialog.
Make your indentation settings, which are fine and should work. See if the
other settings are what you want. Click OK.

All of your paragraphs should now be in the Body Text style, and they should
have the indent you want.

IMMEDIATELY (!!) open the Body Text style and (DOING NOTHING ELSE) unclick
Update Automatically.

Go on to your next problem. That will probably be reformatting the Chapter
headings, then changing the lead paragraph of each chapter.

Is this a memoir you¹re writing?


Best,


- Bill

Thank you. I must STILL be doing something obviously dumb. I found
theReset Para command and dragged it into the toolbar. Dragged two of
them into the toolbar, one for 'save in 'normal'; and one for 'save in-
'Book T (v).doc'.

I tried '' to select everything (i think it only does one section
(?); and I tried highlighting a paragraph (including the paragraph
'reverse P' symbol at the end of the line. I selected random paragraphs
also. For example, a two-line paragraph on page 238:-

"You stopped Graygoo from using our Dreamchanger in the
Reverse Energy Machine" added Skip. (may have to
make my margins & indents smaller here)

The first word, "You", is indented 2cm. I would like it to be indented
a further .75 of a cm (I've got it set for 1.27 at the moment)

If I go into Format>Style>body text>Modify.. it says "left
(aligned),outline level body text, indentation left 2cm, right 0 cm
first line .75 cm (I just changed it), spacing before 0pt, after 6pt,
single. that's without touching reset para or redefine style.

If I look in format> paragraph, it also says I already have a
first-line indent.

The blue tab markers? The bottom two are at 2cm, and the top one is
exactly .75 in from them, but no soap. I'm obviously making some
beginner's mistake. I notice the reset para and redefine style buttons
don't stay gray, like the others seem to, but from what I can
understand, my paragraphs and body text IS set already for a first-line
indent.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[Bill Weylock]

I should know better than to answer a post in the wee hours of my morning.

I hope the advice is correct, that it works for you, and that the criticism
wasn¹t too infuriating.


Best,


- Bill

P.S. I've just noticed that pp 11-13 are indented for each paragraph.
It looks like a carry over from when I typed it in text Edit. The
paragraphs are still styled in body text, with the same setup features
as the others. I don't think this is relevant... but I thought I should
say, just in case it is.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[mack]

Bill,
Firstly, my sincere apologies for not being clear. Secondly, THANK
YOU for even ATTEMPTING to help. I am trying to follow your
instructions. They seemed to have worked once, but not the second time.
So I will put in some more time and get back.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Mack:

{sigh} I KNOW I am going to regret this...

Email me that document, will you please? I will then know exactly what you
are talking about and be able to tell you exactly how to fix it.

To email me, use the email address this post comes from. You MUST place a
password in the subject line: if you do not, my server will delete the
message and I will never be aware that you sent anything.

Your password (one-time only, just for you...) is c13gtAb2000cwb. It must
be in the Subject line of your email. If anyone else tries to use it, or
it's not in the subject line, or you try to use it more than once... Well,
you know how money disappears into the IRS? Think of my mail server like
that...

Please note: I am not promising to fix the document for you, but I am going
to tell you exactly how to fix it. The problem we're having here is that
you are attempting to produce a large-scale complex document, and you have
never done that before. OK, a Boeing 747 is probably not an ideal aircraft
to learn to fly in, but if you were about to crash in one I am sure you
would attempt to land it. That's the sort of thing we're facing here.

In a complex document, EVERYTHING depends on and is related to everything
else. You have to get certain fundamental things correct, and do so in the
correct order. Until you do that, you cannot control the document or the
outcome.

That's what I will help you with You should also be aware that I will
share this process with everyone else here. That's not to embarrass you,
but because you are not the only one in the world attempting this sort of
thing for the first time It's just that the thousand or so other people
in this position are sitting silently in the background, hoping that you and
I will give them the answer without them having to post here and admit they
don't know already

Cheers

Bill,
Firstly, my sincere apologies for not being clear. Secondly, THANK
YOU for even ATTEMPTING to help. I am trying to follow your
instructions. They seemed to have worked once, but not the second time.
So I will put in some more time and get back.

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Bill Weylock]

For the record, I offered to format the whole thing for him about a week
ago.

Hi Mack:

{sigh} I KNOW I am going to regret this...

Email me that document, will you please? I will then know exactly what you
are talking about and be able to tell you exactly how to fix it.

To email me, use the email address this post comes from. You MUST place a
password in the subject line: if you do not, my server will delete the
message and I will never be aware that you sent anything.

Your password (one-time only, just for you...) is c13gtAb2000cwb. It must
be in the Subject line of your email. If anyone else tries to use it, or
it's not in the subject line, or you try to use it more than once... Well,
you know how money disappears into the IRS? Think of my mail server like
that...

Please note: I am not promising to fix the document for you, but I am going
to tell you exactly how to fix it. The problem we're having here is that
you are attempting to produce a large-scale complex document, and you have
never done that before. OK, a Boeing 747 is probably not an ideal aircraft
to learn to fly in, but if you were about to crash in one I am sure you
would attempt to land it. That's the sort of thing we're facing here.

In a complex document, EVERYTHING depends on and is related to everything
else. You have to get certain fundamental things correct, and do so in the
correct order. Until you do that, you cannot control the document or the
outcome.

That's what I will help you with You should also be aware that I will
share this process with everyone else here. That's not to embarrass you,
but because you are not the only one in the world attempting this sort of
thing for the first time It's just that the thousand or so other people
in this position are sitting silently in the background, hoping that you and
I will give them the answer without them having to post here and admit they
don't know already

Cheers

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Yeah....I shoulda told Mack to use Clear Formatting long ago, before I had
him switch all his paragraphs to Body Text. My mistake.

I was gonna give it a few more posts before offering to look at it,
personally.

Daiya

 

[mack]

Hi,
Thank you for the offer to email. Please put on your patience caps
and take a nice deep breath. I DID try to email a version of this
document previously to Bill. I DON'T think I know how. My Word help
says I have to use 'entourage'...Yes, That's fine, I have it installed
and have sent a few emails. BUT doesn't this group only show part of
John's email address? This is probably a silly question, but wouldn't I
need to type the FULL address into 'entourage'? I have the document on
my desktop, but of course it can't be dragged onto this. And I'm not
even perfectly sure about encoding/ compressing it- I've tried the
'stuffit' function, but it didn't seem to work before. I don't want to
make 7 attempt to send it and have to ask for new passwords. Sorry.

 

[mack]

Hi,
Thank you for the offer to email. Please put on your patience caps
and take a nice deep breath. I DID try to email a version of this
document previously to Bill. I DON'T think I know how. My Word help
says I have to use 'entourage'...Yes, That's fine, I have it installed
and have sent a few emails. BUT doesn't this group's software only show
part of
John's email address? This is probably a silly question, but wouldn't I
need to type the FULL address into 'entourage', instead of via this web
page? I have the document on
my desktop, but of course it can't be dragged onto this group's
messaging page. And I'm not
even perfectly sure about encoding/compressing it- I've tried the
'stuffit' function offered in entourage when I tried to send the
document to Bill, but it didn't seem to work before. I don't want to
make 7 attempts to send it and have to ask for new passwords. I thought
it better to say this now & not later. Sorry.

 

[mack]

Hi,
Thank you for the very kind offer to let me email. Please put on your
patience caps and take a nice deep breath. I DID try to email a version
of this document previously to Bill. I DON'T think I know how. My Word
help says I have to use 'entourage'...Yes, That's fine, I have it
installed and have sent a few emails. BUT doesn't this group's software
only show part of John's email address? This is probably a silly
question, but wouldn't Ineed to type the FULL email address into my own
email program- 'entourage', instead of via this webpage? I have the
document on my desktop, but of course it can't be dragged onto this
group's messaging page. And I'm not even perfectly sure about
encoding/compressing it-I've tried the'stuffit' function offered in
entourage when I tried to send the document to Bill, but it didn't seem
to work before. I don't want to make 7 attempts to send it and have to
ask for new passwords. I thought it better to say this now & not later.
Sorry.

 

[Bill Weylock]

I have it, as you know.

One of the reasons you are having trouble is that giant chunks of text,
which should be discrete paragraphs, select as one unit. Searching for
special characters reveals that you do not have real returns between your
paragraphs, which is why the first line of what looks like some paragraphs
indents oddly and others refuse to. It¹s really one giant paragraph.

How did this happen? Beats me, but you¹ll have to fix it before you can
control your formatting.

I assume that reflects the various sections you pulled in from TextEdit, but
I don¹t know why they are behaving that way.

The bad news is that in order to fix them you would have to save the whole
document as text, open it fresh, and start over.

I don¹t particularly feel like retyping all of your chapter headings into
headers or redoing the section formatting, which is what you¹ll need, but I
am sending you back your document with your paragraphs formatted the way you
want them. I think you know enough now to fix it. If not, at least we will
be talking about actual paragraphs instead of whatever the hell you actually
had.


Best,


- Bill

Hi,
Thank you for the very kind offer to let me email. Please put on your
patience caps and take a nice deep breath. I DID try to email a version
of this document previously to Bill. I DON'T think I know how. My Word
help says I have to use 'entourage'...Yes, That's fine, I have it
installed and have sent a few emails. BUT doesn't this group's software
only show part of John's email address? This is probably a silly
question, but wouldn't Ineed to type the FULL email address into my own
email program- 'entourage', instead of via this webpage? I have the
document on my desktop, but of course it can't be dragged onto this
group's messaging page. And I'm not even perfectly sure about
encoding/compressing it-I've tried the'stuffit' function offered in
entourage when I tried to send the document to Bill, but it didn't seem
to work before. I don't want to make 7 attempts to send it and have to
ask for new passwords. I thought it better to say this now & not later.
Sorry.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[Bill Weylock]

Explained why I had to remove the sections in my last post.

Just finished sending it off to you. It isn¹t quite the way you want it but
it should be manageable now.

All of your text was corrupted so that you could NOT format paragraphs the
way everyone was telling you too.

I don¹t think we would ever have thought of that in another three days of
discussion.

You may not want to do it, but it would be so much easier for you if you did
not do a ³different first page² for each section and simply let the page
numbers flow. If you go back to your old arrangement, you have to create a
new first page footer for each section, but I guess you can handle that.

If you go with actual Chapter headings, which would appear in the text
instead of just in the headers, you would be able to keep the same
header/footer structure throughout, simply changing the text of the odd page
header for each chapter section.

Also, do NOT use a Heading style in the header. Use Header style. I fixed
that.

If you are going to use real chapter headings in the text, that¹s when you
should use a Heading style.

Enjoy, and let me know how it works for you.


Best,


- Bill

Hi,
Thank you for the very kind offer to let me email. Please put on your
patience caps and take a nice deep breath. I DID try to email a version
of this document previously to Bill. I DON'T think I know how. My Word
help says I have to use 'entourage'...Yes, That's fine, I have it
installed and have sent a few emails. BUT doesn't this group's software
only show part of John's email address? This is probably a silly
question, but wouldn't Ineed to type the FULL email address into my own
email program- 'entourage', instead of via this webpage? I have the
document on my desktop, but of course it can't be dragged onto this
group's messaging page. And I'm not even perfectly sure about
encoding/compressing it-I've tried the'stuffit' function offered in
entourage when I tried to send the document to Bill, but it didn't seem
to work before. I don't want to make 7 attempts to send it and have to
ask for new passwords. I thought it better to say this now & not later.
Sorry.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[mack]

Bill,
Thank you so much for looking at it. I really appreciate it. I
fully understand if you don't wish to explain how. I could well imagine
that it was fiddly, as following your detailed instuctions in your 2.09
am post only worked for me the frist time, and not after. I shamefully
admit that I'm scared to save it as text, if it will destroy all
punctuation. I may need a little time to calm down before I open it as
a copy, and start re-doing it. Just to have the paragraphs fixed has
saved me going through the whole thing by hand. Thanks once again. You
deserve a a medal.

 

[Bill Weylock]

No. No. No!!

Don¹t have to save it as text, Mack!!

It¹s fixed now. I went ahead and did it for you.

All you need to do is fix the headers and (if you choose) add chapter
headings within the text.

Formatting and styles are under control.

Oh, you will also want to change the indent of the lead paragraph in each
chapter. The first one in the document can be a model for that as well.


Best,


- Bill

Bill,
Thank you so much for looking at it. I really appreciate it. I
fully understand if you don't wish to explain how. I could well imagine
that it was fiddly, as following your detailed instuctions in your 2.09
am post only worked for me the frist time, and not after. I shamefully
admit that I'm scared to save it as text, if it will destroy all
punctuation. I may need a little time to calm down before I open it as
a copy, and start re-doing it. Just to have the paragraphs fixed has
saved me going through the whole thing by hand. Thanks once again. You
deserve a a medal.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

And the cash prize is awarded to Bill!

Daiya