Entourage 2008 Database Utility is backwards

[Kurt_Lang]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel
Email Client: pop

I'd been trying to compress and/or rebuild my database to get the size down after deleting many emails with large attachments. Each time I tried, the new database was the same size as before, and the backup was smaller. It finally occurred to me that the "backup" was actually the new database. Please fix.

 

[Ed Kimball]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel
Email Client: pop

I'd been trying to compress and/or rebuild my database to get the size down
after deleting many emails with large attachments. Each time I tried, the new
database was the same size as before, and the backup was smaller. It finally
occurred to me that the "backup" was actually the new database. Please fix.

You are talking to a group of peers here, not MS. Try using "Send Feedback
.... to Microsoft" from the Help menu of any Office App, or use one of the
tech support options on MS's web site.

 

[Kurt_Lang]

Oh, I know Ed. I stuck it here after reading quite a few posts where the responder is an MS employee figuring someone at MS would see it. But it is certainly a better idea to use the Send Feedback option. In all the years I've used Office for Mac, I can't say I'd really even noticed that choice before. Thanks.

 

[Diane Ross]

I'd been trying to compress and/or rebuild my database to get the size down
after deleting many emails with large attachments. Each time I tried, the new
database was the same size as before, and the backup was smaller. It finally
occurred to me that the "backup" was actually the new database. Please fix.

The database will be left with 'wasted' space in it every time you delete
something. However, this is not all bad, since the wasted space is used up
with new data as it is added. This way, over a period of time (assuming that
you are deleting stuff as you go) the database will probably reach an
optimum size, after which the stuff you delete is roughly equal to the stuff
you add, and no further growth takes place.

If you need to recover the wasted space on your hard disk, you will have to
do a 'typical' or 'compress' rebuild to compact the database. This will
create a compacted version of the database without the wasted space. You
will then have to manually delete the backup copies of the original database
that the rebuild process creates AFTER you are happy the new one is OK.

 

[Kurt_Lang]

Hi Diane,

As you likely know, emails deleted from the Deleted Items folder don't actually go anywhere. They remain in a hidden part of the database until you do a compact with the Database Utility.

But that's the problem. In Office 2008, the resulting identities are being named backwards. For instance, I started with a 56 MB identity from which I had deleted quite a few emails with attachments. At the end of the process, the Main Identity folder was still 56 MB. The one named with the backup date, which *should* be the original before compacting, was 24 MB. Clearly the optimized identity, but not named so.

 

[Diane Ross]

At the end of the process, the Main Identity folder was still 56 MB. The one
named with the backup date, which *should* be the original before compacting,
was 24 MB.

Your 56 MB database is so small there is absolutely no need to compress. I
wouldn't even consider compressing until I was in the 5+ GB range.

BTW, how much free space on your drive? Open Activity Monitor and check the
size under the Disk Usage tab. You need 10% free for virtual memory.

As you likely know, emails deleted from the Deleted Items folder don't
actually go anywhere. They remain in a hidden part of the database until you
do a compact with the Database Utility.

Yes, but it's not always a bad thing.

But that's the problem. In Office 2008, the resulting identities are being
named backwards. For instance, I started with a 56 MB identity from which I
had deleted quite a few emails with attachments. At the end of the process,
the Main Identity folder was still 56 MB. The one named with the backup date,
which *should* be the original before compacting, was 24 MB. Clearly the
optimized identity, but not named so.

Hmmmmm, not sure what happened here. I do know that sometimes rebuild goes
wonky when Entourage is making a backup, it merges the backup with the new
and the database is double the size and totally corrupt. That's why I always
advise making a duplicate in the Finder first as backup.

You also should never rebuild unless necessary. It can further complicate
matters. Considering the small size of your database you are just asking for
trouble. If your drive is so full that it can't handle a 56 MB Identity you
have some serious problems.

If you export all as Entourage archive (.rge) file under File --> Export,
the size of the .rge file is the actual size of your data.

FWIW, when I start a new Identity from scratch, I will import all data THEN
add additional MBOX files of my old sent mail to deliberately make the
database the optimum size I desire. Then I delete the additional folders for
Entourage to reuse that space. This gets my database written to continuous
block on the drive much like a partition.

 

[Kurt_Lang]

I wouldn't even consider compressing until I was in the 5+ GB range.

Sorry, but I had to laugh at that. Why in the world would you wait that long? You mention "it's not always a bad thing", but it's inaccessible data, get rid of it. One of the only ways you can even see what's been removed from the Deleted Items folder is to open the Entourage database in Word using the option to "Recover Text from Any File". With even a small database, you get hundreds of pages of text.

I have gobs of free space, so that's not an issue.

You also should never rebuild unless necessary. It can further complicate

matters. Considering the small size of your database you are just asking for
trouble.

I can't agree with that at all. Compress a big database, compress a small one. What's the difference? As long as the software is doing what it's supposed to do, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to compress the database whenever the user wishes to.

But we're wasting time discussing the semantics of when a person should compress their database. My point is that Office 2008 is misnaming the files at the end of a compress. The original is supposed to be named with the backup date, and the compressed folder gets the normal "Main Identity" name. It's not doing that.

 

[Diane Ross]

I can't agree with that at all. Compress a big database, compress a small one.
What's the difference? As long as the software is doing what it's supposed to
do, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to compress the database whenever
the user wishes to.

You are arguing with the advice of Jud Spencer the lead developer for
Entourage when it was first introduced. Do what you want. All I'm doing is
passing along the info from the 'father' of Entourage.

But we're wasting time discussing the semantics of when a person should
compress their database. My point is that Office 2008 is misnaming the files
at the end of a compress. The original is supposed to be named with the backup
date, and the compressed folder gets the normal "Main Identity" name. It's not
doing that.

You are the only person to have reported this. I'm not sure how we could
verify what happened.

 

[Ed Kimball]

Yes, but that "as long as" is the key phrase!

You are arguing with the advice of Jud Spencer the lead developer for
Entourage when it was first introduced. Do what you want. All I'm doing is
passing along the info from the 'father' of Entourage.

You are the only person to have reported this. I'm not sure how we could
verify what happened.

 

[Kurt_Lang]

You are arguing with the advice of Jud Spencer the lead developer for
Entourage when it was first introduced. Do what you want.

If any developer says such a thing about any software, it's pretty much an admission that they don't trust their own code. Hmm.

Throughout Office X, 2004 and 2008, I can't tell you how many times I've compressed the database. I've never had an issue with anything being damaged by the process. So the software is doing what it's supposed to.

Part of the confusion I've noted from other users I've talked to is that they confuse the meaning of "Compress" as related with Entourage. They think the resulting file is smaller because it's being compressed, like with a Zip or Stuffit file. The function should really be called Compact, or maybe even more accurately, Clean Up. The compress function does one thing; it removes items that were deleted from the Deleted Items folder from the database. Otherwise, your database will continue to grow until it eventually consumes every bit of free space on the drive.

All in all, it's a pretty straightforward process. A bit simplified, it goes like this. Read the existing database from the beginning record by record. Write each record to a new file. If a record is flagged as deleted from the Deleted Items folder, don't write that record to the new file. Continue through all records to the end of the file. Name the original identity with a backup date. Name the newly created database as the original name. Done.

All I'm doing is passing along the info from the 'father' of Entourage.

Not blaming you for anything, Diane. Nor am I angry. I'm just discussing.

You are the only person to have reported this. I'm not sure how we could

verify what happened.

Now that's what I wanted to hear. Some indication if others are experiencing this at all. That could mean that I simply need to remove and then reinstall Office 2008. I'm pretty sure you get what I mean from the original post, but allow me to be a little more verbose.

In Office X and 2004, the following happened after a compress:

1) The original Main Identity folder is named Main Identity [Back up xxxx]
2) The newly compressed database folder is named Main Identity.

For me, Office 2008 is doing this after a compress:

1) The Main Identity folder is the same folder it started with.
2) The newly compressed folder is being give the backup name.

I'll try reinstalling, applying all available updates later today and see what happens.

 

[Diane Ross]

I'll try reinstalling, applying all available updates later today and see what
happens.

I doubt that will help. I'm not sure why you are seeing the larger database
as the "new" one. Could you do some testing for me?

1) create an Identity that is larger than normal. Take a screen shot showing
the size.

2) rebuild this Identity and take a screenshot showing resulting size of
both new and rebuilt.

I can see if I can get a developer to take a look at the results.

 

[Kurt_Lang]

Hello Diane,

Your note that others haven't reported this issue got me looking at my system for a probable cause yesterday. Which is where I really should have started in the first place.

Anyway, I reapplied the 10.5.6 Combo updater. I then sent myself and email with a 10 MB attachment. Retrieved that email then drag and dropped it on the desktop so I could repeatedly drag it back into the Inbox just so I could build up the size of Entourage's database.

Before applying the OS X software update, the result of a compress were still coming out backwards. After, it then behaves normally. I can only assume the Combo update fixed some sort of small glitch in the OS.

It appears all is well now. Thanks for your input.

 

[Diane Ross]

Anyway, I reapplied the 10.5.6 Combo updater. I then sent myself and email
with a 10 MB attachment. Retrieved that email then drag and dropped it on the
desktop so I could repeatedly drag it back into the Inbox just so I could
build up the size of Entourage's database.

A good way to 'adjust' the size of a database is to drag your sent mail to
the desktop as an MBOX file. This can be dragged repeatedly into the
database to get it to the max size you want, then delete all the imported
MBOX folders.

Before applying the OS X software update, the result of a compress were still
coming out backwards. After, it then behaves normally. I can only assume the
Combo update fixed some sort of small glitch in the OS.

It appears all is well now. Thanks for your input.

Glad to hear it's all fixed. That's a strange problem.