Remotely Disabling Documents

D

Diane Dennis

Hi!

I sell downloadable forms, and sometimes people will purchase and download
the form, and then dispute the purchase with their CC company.

I automatically lose because I'm selling a non-tangible product.

What I'd like to know is, is it possible to remotely disable a document so
that the person who downloaded it can't use it anymore if they dispute it
with their CC company?

Thank you very much!
Diane
 
C

CyberTaz

Hi Diane;

Unfortunately it's just about impossible to answer your question in any
definite way since we have no idea what version of which program for what
operating systems or the nature of your forms.

There could be some sort of VBA solution but there is nothing inherent in
either of the Office apps that would serve your purpose ‹ not to mention
that VBA isn't supported in Office 2008 to begin with. Since I don't do that
type of distribution I'm afraid I don't know what to suggest, but if you
provide sufficient detail one of the other regulars here may be able to
offer some ideas.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Diane:

Anything is possible if you throw enough money and code at it, but Microsoft
has not managed to solve this problem for Windows 7, and you may not want to
spend as much money as they have in chasing the solution :)

The only way to truly fix this is to have your product ping your server with
their licence key on each use. If they withdraw their payment, you withdraw
their licence key, and the product stops working.

You need to ensure that the licence key you issue includes an encrypted form
of their CPU, Network Card, and Hard Disk GUID. Otherwise, it will take the
Chinese hackers less than ten days to produce a "universal" version that
will work on any computer.

The hacked version will be on all the torrents before you get the
notification from the credit card company :)

Microsoft has basically given up on trying to solve this problem. Instead,
they are moving all their consumer products onto the web, where they can
check for a subscription ID each time. If you haven't paid, it won't work,
and since you never GET the code, there's nothing you can do about it.

That's the REAL benefit of "Cloud Computing": the great unspoken secret: the
elephant in the lounge room, which none of the vendors so loudly and
energetically pursuing Cloud Computing want to talk about. :)

Hope this helps

--

Mactopia is currently broken: the helpers are not seeing any of the
questions being posted. Microsoft is working on the problem. In the
meantime:

To successfully post in here, either use Google:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.mac.office.word?lnk=

Or Microsoft Communities:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx?dg=micros
oft.public.mac.office.word&cat=en_US_3cf8ecf1-ca81-4391-b07d-8933029ee8a9&la
ng=en&cr=US

Or in Entourage, use the pre-configured Microsoft News server:
See "setting up Entourage for Newsreading" here:
http://word.mvps.org/Mac/AccessNewsgroups.html

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
J

Jeff Chapman

Hello Diane and John,

The only way to truly fix this is to have your product ping your server with
their licence key on each use. If they withdraw their payment, you withdraw
their licence key, and the product stops working.

I think this involves running up a pretty slippery slope, to be honest.
If you require the user to be online whenever they use your
form (stored offline), this places a severe restriction on the user,
that they cannot even use the form without being online.

In the world of software, there are many software titles that
require one-time activation before use, which requires
access to a server online or places the burden on the user
to make a phone call. However, I have never seen any software
that constantly checks as to whether the user is (a) online
and (b) a "registered" product, EVERY TIME the user is online.

In fact, many users have complained about such software
protection schemes in the past, deeming them "malware" and
not without good reason.

I would rather think that you'd be better off if you allow the
user to activate the form only after they have completed
payment in the proper manner. In other words, pay first,
and then get your registration key. That's a pretty standard
way of doing things these days, and most users are accustomed
to it. It's a unnecessary restriction to require paying users to
constantly have to be online in order to use your electronic
product. Purchase once, get the key, unlock it online, and
then whatever happens after that is out of your control.
Yes, it may get copied, and yes, the license key may get hacked
and "unlocked" copies may get distributed. But you need to
look at where your income is coming from now, and how
much of your current income from these forms is coming
from honest, paying users or not. If you severely inconvenience
your 90% share of paying users due to the antics of your 10%
share of dishonest users, you are not running a customer-centric
business. On the other hand, if half of your customers cheat
you after purchasing the product, you need to review your
online transaction scheme so that they you are properly
paid and that the users can only use the software or forms
once the payment process is 100% completed.

If you really want full control over access of a form, the
best thing you can do is to make it available on a subscription
basis, and make the users know that they MUST be online
in order to use the form. As John mentioned, this is getting
into the realm of cloud computing. I would either let the
users download and unlock the forms on the client side
after valid purchase (and offer NO REFUNDS after unlocking),
or else move the entire thing online and require the users to
subscribe AND access the form via a web browser.

Not knowing more about the technology you're using for
these downloadable forms and what the expected result is,
it's difficult to say more; but generally, I'd think that you
need to go one way or another, and avoid hassling your
honest, paying customers in the process.

Jeff
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Jeff:

Wise words, as usual, and I wouldn't disagree with anything you have said.

However, as one who needs to get paid for what I do, and whose only book
recently turned up on Google Books without me getting a cent, I am really
rather "over" the Freetards out there.

I think Diane's issue is that she doesn't send them the key until after she
receives their credit-card payment. But at some point in the following 30
days, the bank will reverse the payment if the customer "disputes the
charge".

In places like China, some 82 per cent of software is stolen (as opposed to
only 27 per cent in the USA...). Now, Microsoft Corporation may be able to
survive on the 20 per cent that's left, but I can't, and I suspect Diane
can't either.

The Internet is now much worse than the lawless Wild West. The i-Generation
no longer sees any need to pay for anything they get on the Internet, and
they regard anyone who does pay as a fool.

On Windows, Microsoft Office and Microsoft Windows do constantly check to
see if their licence key remains valid. Sure, it's not "each use", but it's
at least once a month.

So I have no philosophical problem with Diane installing a mechanism that
periodically checks to see if the licence is still valid. If Apple can
issue an update that intentionally bricks the jail-broken iPhones, I see no
reason why any other vendor can't disable software if the customer cancels
their payment.

My objection in Diane's case is purely on cost and complexity grounds. The
cost of coding this up to make it reliable is quite substantial. Microsoft
took a shortcut with Windows 7. It took the hackers around 12 hours to
disable the protection.

Every beta copy Microsoft puts out is "time-bombed" to stop working if you
don't pay for it before the nominated date. Microsoft has always disclosed
that the time-bomb is there, but for Office 2010 they have even given us the
date on which it triggers.

I and a couple of other denizens of this list could tell you some funny
stories about the beta time-bombs. Well... They're funny in retrospect.
The new build of the software would be scheduled to be issued at 17:00 US
Pacific Time on a particular date. Previously, we never knew the date. But
here in Australia, the time-bomb would go off 18 hours earlier, at 17:00
local time. Not funny at the time. But nowhere near as not funny as when I
jumped on a jet plane for a three-weeks overseas trip, only to discover the
time-bomb had gone off and I would somehow have to find a way to download
350 MB of beta while on the road... Yeah, I know, never install a beta on a
production machine... But how am I going to test it if I don't expose it to
"production" workloads? :)

Cheers

Hello Diane and John,



I think this involves running up a pretty slippery slope, to be honest.
If you require the user to be online whenever they use your
form (stored offline), this places a severe restriction on the user,
that they cannot even use the form without being online.

In the world of software, there are many software titles that
require one-time activation before use, which requires
access to a server online or places the burden on the user
to make a phone call. However, I have never seen any software
that constantly checks as to whether the user is (a) online
and (b) a "registered" product, EVERY TIME the user is online.

In fact, many users have complained about such software
protection schemes in the past, deeming them "malware" and
not without good reason.

I would rather think that you'd be better off if you allow the
user to activate the form only after they have completed
payment in the proper manner. In other words, pay first,
and then get your registration key. That's a pretty standard
way of doing things these days, and most users are accustomed
to it. It's a unnecessary restriction to require paying users to
constantly have to be online in order to use your electronic
product. Purchase once, get the key, unlock it online, and
then whatever happens after that is out of your control.
Yes, it may get copied, and yes, the license key may get hacked
and "unlocked" copies may get distributed. But you need to
look at where your income is coming from now, and how
much of your current income from these forms is coming
from honest, paying users or not. If you severely inconvenience
your 90% share of paying users due to the antics of your 10%
share of dishonest users, you are not running a customer-centric
business. On the other hand, if half of your customers cheat
you after purchasing the product, you need to review your
online transaction scheme so that they you are properly
paid and that the users can only use the software or forms
once the payment process is 100% completed.

If you really want full control over access of a form, the
best thing you can do is to make it available on a subscription
basis, and make the users know that they MUST be online
in order to use the form. As John mentioned, this is getting
into the realm of cloud computing. I would either let the
users download and unlock the forms on the client side
after valid purchase (and offer NO REFUNDS after unlocking),
or else move the entire thing online and require the users to
subscribe AND access the form via a web browser.

Not knowing more about the technology you're using for
these downloadable forms and what the expected result is,
it's difficult to say more; but generally, I'd think that you
need to go one way or another, and avoid hassling your
honest, paying customers in the process.

Jeff

Mactopia is currently broken: the helpers are not seeing any of the
questions being posted. Microsoft is working on the problem. In the
meantime:

To successfully post in here, either use Google:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.mac.office.word?lnk=

Or Microsoft Communities:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx?dg=micros
oft.public.mac.office.word&cat=en_US_3cf8ecf1-ca81-4391-b07d-8933029ee8a9&la
ng=en&cr=US

Or in Entourage, use the pre-configured Microsoft News server:
See "setting up Entourage for Newsreading" here:
http://word.mvps.org/Mac/AccessNewsgroups.html

--

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
D

Diane Dennis

Hi Guys!

I'm very sorry that I never responded back to this thread that I created. I guess it doesn't notify me when a response has been posted and I didn't realize any responses had been posted until I did a search today for TheContractorsGroup.

Thank you so much to all of you for your responses!

I don't actually issue "keys" when someone purchases their document(s) from me, they just download it after their purchase is complete, and if they can't get it downloaded then I email it to them.

They aren't required to be online ever to use the form, it resides on their computer just like any other document and they can use it as often as they need (and I provide unlimited free replacements and updates).

My issue is that, because my product is intangible, when someone disputes their purchase (nine out of ten times it's disputed simply because they don't remember who, me, that they purchased their form from) the credit card companies, and PayPal, AUTOMATICALLY reverse the purchase and take the funds out of my account.

This is the downside of selling downloadable items that are not followed up with a CD or hard copy or anything via mail or ship.

When I receive notification that someone has disputed the purchase, I try to reach them to remind them who I am. They remember and then agree with me that yes they did purchase the form from me.

Unfortunately, the credit card company will not accept my words as proof that the customer agreed that they purchased the product and that they were fairly charged.

The credit card company insists that the purchaser notify the credit card company directly.

Well, in today's age of rush rush rush, most people who have disputed the purchase don't find the time to go back and make the correction with their credit card company but they continue to use the form.

These are the forms that I would like to disable. But because they are on the purchaser's computer, rather than being online (I would never require my customers to be online to use their documents, there is a huge list of reasons as to why this isn't a good idea) I don't know how, or even if it is possible, to disable their access to the document.

I'm guessing not but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. :eek:)

Thank you again so much! And if I don't come back for awhile it's because there are so many things on my plate that I lose track of this and I don't receive a notification that anyone has responded.

Thank you again!!
Diane
Hi!

I sell downloadable forms, and sometimes people will purchase and download
the form, and then dispute the purchase with their CC company.

I automatically lose because I am selling a non-tangible product.

What I'd like to know is, is it possible to remotely disable a document so
that the person who downloaded it cannot use it anymore if they dispute it
with their CC company?

Thank you very much!
Diane
On Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:25 PM CyberTaz wrote:
Hi Diane;

Unfortunately it is just about impossible to answer your question in any
definite way since we have no idea what version of which program for what
operating systems or the nature of your forms.

There could be some sort of VBA solution but there is nothing inherent in
either of the Office apps that would serve your purpose ? not to mention
that VBA is not supported in Office 2008 to begin with. Since I do not do that
type of distribution I am afraid I do not know what to suggest, but if you
provide sufficient detail one of the other regulars here may be able to
offer some ideas.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 11/21/09 4:24 PM, in article
C72D9A99.7EF4F%[email protected], "Diane Dennis"
 

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