Rick B....do you enjoy being rude?

6

'69 Camaro

Hi, Tony.
I meet up with him once a year or so in Seattle.

For the Summit, no doubt. I've never met him but I've read many of his
newsgroup articles and know of him through a friend who attends the same
Access user group meetings as he does. Very impressive individual.

Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
B

Brendan Reynolds

First of all, on the point that many non-MVPs have made significant
contributions, of course I absolutely agree - I don't think anyone in this
thread was implying otherwise.

However, according to the web page at the URL you posted, just one of my
posts to this newsgroup - going back as far as April 2005 - has been marked
as helpful. This would seem to indicate either that I am a singularly
unhelpful person, or that the number of posts marked as helpful via that web
site is not a reliable indicator of helpfulness. I know which of the above I
believe to be true. Others will have to draw their own conclusions.
 
A

aaron.kempf

i just think that it's ridiculous that there are this many MDB users
left in the world.

your software is buggy, unreliable

you guys need to grow a real skillset and start writing SQL Server
applications.

ADP made you MDB kids obsolete like.. uh.. almost 7 years ago now??
 
J

John Marshall, MVP

Brendan Reynolds said:
First of all, on the point that many non-MVPs have made significant
contributions, of course I absolutely agree - I don't think anyone in this
thread was implying otherwise.

However, according to the web page at the URL you posted, just one of my
posts to this newsgroup - going back as far as April 2005 - has been
marked as helpful. This would seem to indicate either that I am a
singularly unhelpful person, or that the number of posts marked as helpful
via that web site is not a reliable indicator of helpfulness. I know which
of the above I believe to be true. Others will have to draw their own
conclusions.

You could add a tag line to your response asking the user to mark your
message as helpful.

The MVP award is not a popularity contest and unfortunately that is what the
web interface is promoting. Also, the web interface dos not give an
indication of the quality of the answer. What percentage of the answers
actually get acknowledged as being helpful? In my home turf of the Visio
newsgroups, less than ten percent of my answers are acknowledged with an
indication that they were helpful.

If you use the web interface to check the posts of the current MVPs, you
will notice that most do NOT have the MVP icon next to their name. This is
an indicator that the MVPs posts were not done useing the web interface.
Though handy for the general user, the web interface is not designed for how
most MVPs read the newsgroups. The general user is looking for a specific
answer, while the MVP is looking for new messages since their last session
or messages they have yet to read. Products like Outlook Express are far
more friendlier to ehe MVPs' approach to the newsgroups.

John... Visio MVP
 
6

'69 Camaro

I resent my name being brought into this childness behavior.

Ma'am, you can be resentful all you want and feign innocence, but your
continued deception will continue to be pointed out.

Okay. Let's check the facts. You usually sign in as mdavis to post
questions to the Access experts who generously answer your questions for
you, but you made a mistake in the following thread, and Rick B reminded you
about double-posting a question after you'd already received a response to
your first question:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr...8154/f813a768aa9d68e0?&hl=en#f813a768aa9d68e0

Here's your first question on the topic that had already received a
response:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr...7333/bb624162b420aa8b?&hl=en#bb624162b420aa8b

Rick was polite enough to you, but you didn't like being told that you were
wrong, so you created a new .Net Passport for a new Microsoft Community user
account, used Cat as the profile name, and then posted this message to
publicly embarrass him while attempting to remain anonymous:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr...9cac/373bfdeba57967d5?&hl=en#373bfdeba57967d5

When you later returned to the thread and discovered that your usual
identity had been found out, you signed back in to your mdavis .Net Passport
account and changed the profile name to Frustrated, so that you wouldn't be
recognized in the future and possibly be embarrassed for your failed attempt
at deception and failure to put Rick in his place. You patted yourself on
the back for being so clever, and then you went home for the day. When you
came back to work again this morning at Kinetic Concepts, you discovered
your ruse had been revealed yet again, so you decided to claim innocence and
try to redirect the spotlight elsewhere -- anywhere but at the guilty party:
you.
And since I have no problem being rude
. . . . Grow up.

Thank you for admitting that you believe it's okay for _you_ to be rude, but
it's not okay for others to be. You may try to change the subject and
demand that others behave when you, yourself, have not, but you won't
succeed. The subject is still your dishonesty and how you tried to publicly
embarrass Rick -- and still haven't gotten away with it.
so the fact that I show having 40 posts is,
well, not a revelation.

You didn't understand what you were being shown, so here's the revelation
for you. Expand the threads on the following Web page, which reveals the
records from the database search on _your_ Microsoft Community user account:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...n-us&dg=microsoft.public.access&lang=en&cr=US

Do you notice a black triangle in the left margin pointing to each of the
mdavis and Frustrated posts in each of the threads, and _only_ to those
posts? Those triangles point to all of the names that have been used in the
profile assigned to the same .Net Passport user account shown in that
database search, which is currently using Frustrated as the profile name --
as revealed by clicking on the name of the author of those particular posts
in the right hand pane, even the ones that were authored by mdavis before
the name change.

Let me spell it out for you. It doesn't matter what the current profile
name is, because the database will show the posts made with that profile and
reveal the profile name at the time of the post. And it doesn't matter that
you created a new .Net Passport as "Cat" to post an anonymous slap to Rick's
face, because we still knew it was you posting under a different name and
even pointed this out to you in one of the threads.

No matter what you do, you'll be caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
We can see it's you. Does this clarify things for you, ma'am?

It's your own efforts that brought you here, because you don't like being
told, yet again, that you were wrong. You can come clean and offer an
apology to Rick B or risk that all 7,500 employees at Kinetic Concepts get
plonked by the Access experts who avoid dishonest people, especially the
ones who try to prove that they are more clever -- and do it rather badly.
The choice is yours. Since, as you say, you post questions to this
newsgroup all the time, I'm sure you'll make the right choice.

Oh, did I mention that if you use a different Web newsreader than
Microsoft.com's, we can still see it's you posting the question? Or would
you rather take the time to get training and experience in Access so that
you don't need an Access expert's help? Or would you rather be using Oracle
development tools to interface your company's Oracle databases, instead of
Access?

Or would you rather we just have Aaron Kempf answer all of your future
Access questions? He can help you with all of your Excel spreadsheets, too.
Just ask him.

Have a nice day, ma'am.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
T

TC

I agree. AFAICS, from looking at this, admittedly only a few times, the
majority of answers are not marked as helpful. So that statistic is not
significant, IMHO.

TC (MVP Access)
http://tc2.atspace.com
 
T

TC

Also, the web interface dos not give an indication of the quality of the answer.

IOW, what does "helpful" mean?

For example, I have a policy of not discussing SQL questions, unless
the person tells me the primary keys of the tables. Some of these
questioners probably think, "Geez, what a plonker, why can't he just
answer my question?" But if the poster answered /my/ question, he might
find out that his tables are wrongly designed. In which case, he is
wasting his time completely, trying to write the SQL, before he has
fixed the PKs of his tables.

Would that poster mark my answer as helpful? No. But is that a fair
rating? Not if you look at the entirety of the poster's situation.

TC (MVP Access)
http://tc2.atspace.com
 
B

Brendan Reynolds

You could add a tag line to your response asking the user to mark your
message as helpful.
<snip>
It doesn't bother me whether anyone marks my answers or not, John. I merely
wished to point out the inadvisability of drawing any conclusions based on
such incomplete data.

I fully agree with the other points you made.
 
6

'69 Camaro

Hi, Brendan.
This would seem to indicate either that I am a
singularly unhelpful person, or that the number of posts marked as helpful
via that web site is not a reliable indicator of helpfulness.

Anyone counting the total number of your posts marked as answers will see
that you are single-handedly one of the most helpful contributors in the
Access newsgroups.
Others will have to draw their own conclusions.

In those 12 Access newsgroups, you have hundreds and hundreds -- and more
hundreds! --
of your replies marked as an answer to the question with a green check mark
and the tooltip "1 of 1 people found this post helpful," and you found
exactly one of them -- and then stopped looking?

Others might conclude that when you were a kid, all the other kids let you
carry the Easter egg basket -- so that you could participate in Easter egg
hunts, too. <g,d,r>

If you need help finding the more than 10 dozen Easter eggs with your name
on them hidden in just that one newsgroup out of the twelve, please let me
know. :)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
B

Brendan Reynolds

I hear what you're saying, Gunny. I'll look into it. Right now I'm finding
the web site unusable slow, but I'll try again later.
 
6

'69 Camaro

Hi, John.
The MVP award is not a popularity contest and unfortunately that is what
the web interface is promoting.

You mean a questioner might skip the first correct response to his question
and then mark only the correct response of a more popular poster as an
answer? Nah, I don't believe it. . . .

http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...6cd0&mid=0c97d905-7647-462d-b80c-8746fa816cd0

The idea is to create a searchable database of solutions to problems that
researchers can use to quickly find what they need, and to post questions
when they don't find the answers they were looking for. That intention has
nothing to do with the MVP Award or a popularity contest, but there are
observable side effects present where these factors apparently influence
which posts get added to the database of answers.

The MVP's are more well-known and are a little more likely to have their
replies marked as answers than non-MVP's, but I believe non-MVP's can get a
sort of "name brand recognition" to improve the chance of getting their
correct replies marked as answers, too. To test my theory, I became a
member of the Microsoft Community about a year ago and started posting
answers from the Web. The quality of my answers didn't change, but my
chances of getting my replies marked as an answer increased four-fold when I
answered a question using Microsoft's Web newsreader, vice using Outlook
Express, which I'd been using for years and I had thought had earned me some
familiarity within the Access community.

My member profile gave me visibility in that questioners could see that I'd
answered others' questions previously, since each member's profile displays
the number of questions answered correctly and how many different users have
been helped by the member. I think it's because people could see that I was
probably giving them the same high-quality answer that I'd given a lot of
other people previously, which gave them the confidence to mark my reply.
People didn't seem to have that same confidence when I answered their
questions while using Outlook Express.

If you want to call that increased visibility "popularity," then so be it.
I can report that it had a noticeable and measurable effect.
Also, the web interface dos not give an indication of the quality of the
answer.

Microsoft is approaching this with the reasoning that the reputation of the
poster indicates the quality of the answer given, instead of hiring or
getting volunteer judges to judge the merit of individual posts. In their
system, either an MVP or any member who has earned a contributor level badge
indicates a poster who gives high quality answers.

Google Groups has recently introduced a star rating system so that readers
can indicate the quality of any given post, but since it's fairly new, not
many replies have been given a rating. It will take time for such a system
to become a reliable means of quickly researching solutions to a problem.
And there's currently no way to sort on rated answers, so I hope Google
introduces this feature, as I think a star rating system holds the most
promise.

Other than Google Groups and Microsoft's Web newsreaders, I know of no other
publicly available system that indicates the quality of answers posted in
any newsgroup threads. The logistics to carry out a quality control system
for answers requires extra effort and resources, so I can see why this area
has been neglected.
What percentage of the answers actually get acknowledged as being helpful?

Last time I checked was about six months ago and 13% of questions in the
Access newsgroups had replies marked as answers.
In my home turf of the Visio newsgroups, less than ten percent of my
answers are acknowledged with an indication that they were helpful.

Different newsgroups have different rates. The rate is generally a function
of the amount of traffic (the higher the number of questions posted means
more people have been there before and are familiar with marking answers,
and may be more inclined to do so), difficulty level of the questions
(easier questions get replies marked as answers more frequently because the
questioner is more certain that it is indeed the correct answer), the skill
level of the responders, and the number of responders available (additional
experts available to correct any incorrect replies means the questioner can
read and understand the discussion on why one solution may be better than
another).

If you want to compare your rate to Access MVP's rates, six months ago
Access MVP's ranged from 7% to 19% for number of posts marked as answers,
with the average at 14%. Unfortunately, that includes posts advising people
that they were posting in the wrong newsgroup or multiposting, which aren't
going to earn marks as correct answers, so this phenomenon skews the average
for the individuals who are the most active in guiding people to the correct
newsgroups and in how to best post to get replies.

And if you think there's a low acknowledgement rate, there's something you
can do about it. It's not just the original poster who may mark a post as
an answer to the question. MVP's can sign in to the Microsoft Online
Community and mark posts as answers, too. Also, any member can sign in and
mark replies as "helpful" if they didn't post the question themselves.
There's a finite time period when a post can be marked, because after nine
weeks threads age off of the server. So if you see any outstanding replies
to questions that have been neglected by the questioner, feel free to sign
in as an MVP and mark the answers so that they go into Microsoft's
searchable answer database.
Though handy for the general user, the web interface is not designed for
how most MVPs read the newsgroups.

I'm not an MVP, so I must be one of your general users. I can tell you that
the Web interface ain't handy for responders, unless one has a tool that
automates it, as I do. Responders answering and following multiple threads
on a regular basis should be using a different tool than a Web newsreader,
if one is available.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
6

'69 Camaro

Hi, Brendan.
Right now I'm finding the web site unusable slow,

<sigh> Microsoft's Web designers managed to stuff an average of more than
half a MB of text and images into each Web page, so the speed might not get
any faster for you. Ever.

I can paste the URL's into this message, but it becomes an HTML table that
probably won't be usable when it's posted. Perhaps I can E-mail you a
zipped spreadsheet with the clickable URL's instead? I don't have a valid
E-mail address for you, though. If you're willing to send me your E-mail
address, you may contact me at this message's displayed E-mail address, sans
ZERO_SPAM wherever it appears. My E-mail address can also be found on the
Web page for contact info listed below.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
6

'69 Camaro

Hi, TC.
the
majority of answers are not marked as helpful. So that statistic is not
significant, IMHO.

The good news is that any MVP can sign in to the Microsoft Online Community
and mark answers as helpful. You and all of the other MVP's have had the
power to make that statistic significant.

Have you done so? If you have, since we can see it's a work in progress, do
you have an estimated date of completion? If not, then why do you complain
that it doesn't meet your standards when you haven't made an effort to bring
it up to your standards?

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact
info.
 
G

Guest

by responding to "How do I show a File Dialog?". Would this person
deserve this designation? Not from my perspective.

I think there should be room for 'that kind of person' as well.
Quoting my own observation :~) from a couple of years ago:

"MVP's are polite.
"MVP's answer the ordinary repetitive questions as well as the interesting
ones.


(david)
 
T

Tony Toews

Tom Wickerath said:
Regarding that "occasional abrasive attitude", I smile when I sometimes read
it. See post # 9 here:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/b6ba4a2c7bcd7fb4/18ca9c13ad197aae

Well, yes, but Aaron is an exception.

This is impressive. Within four minutes of a posting on that thread
Google has it in the newsgroup thread.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 

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