Trying to number two sections two different ways

J

Janine

Hi Chad Harris

To access Next Page (section break) do as follows in 2010:

On ribbon go to tab
Page Layout Tab > Breaks (dropdown menu) Section Next Page (select).

Janine
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

Of course you can't just type the numbers; they have to be a PAGE field or
they won't change from one page to the next. Anything you put in a header or
footer is repeated on every page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

Okay, I'm going to try one more time. DO NOT OPEN THE PAGE SETUP DIALOG!
Just click on the Breaks button that is on the Page Layout tab. That is
where you will find Section Breaks. The settings on the Line and Page Breaks
tab of the Paragraph dialog are completely irrelevant here, and you should
forget about them for now.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Chad Harris said:
Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
Display the Page Layout tab. The second "group" (MS originally called
them
"chunks") on the tab is labeled Page Setup. In that group there is a
button
labeled Breaks. Click on that. It opens a menu or gallery with "Page
Breaks"
and "Section Breaks." In the latter section there is one labeled Next
Page.
Click on that.

Note that these instructions are for Word 2007. I don't have Word 2010,
so I can't help you there; perhaps it is different.

The explanation for the items on the Line and Page Breaks tab of the
Paragraph dialog (from Word 2003 Help) is:

Pagination
Widow/Orphan control Prevents Microsoft Word from printing the last
line of a paragraph by itself at the top of a page (a widow) or the first
line of a paragraph by itself at the bottom of a page (an orphan).

Keep lines together Prevents a page break within a paragraph.

Keep with next Prevents a page break between the selected paragraph and
the following paragraph.

Page break before Inserts a page break before the selected paragraph.

Suppress line numbers Prevents line numbers from appearing next to
selected paragraphs. This option does not affect documents or sections
with no line numbers.

Don't hyphenate Excludes a paragraph from automatic hyphenation.


--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Well, bless you Ms. Barnhill for being nice enough to explain what those
pull downs are. I was not able to get to your nice link here

http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/front_matter_2007.htm

until now Suzanne. Of course I'm going to read anything you or any Word
MVP puts up for me to read. I 'm going to read it now and try hard to
make it work. This has flumoxed me for over a day in trying to move
this document forward and actually write it because I can't get the front
matter Roman Numeral numbered and the second of two sections (front matter
and what comes after is all I'm doing here) regular numbered 1, 2, 3 etc.

By the way, the only place (and I changed the text size of my Win 7
display from 125% to 100% to be positive I wasn't missing anything on the
ribbon or any dialogue box) that I see a Page Breaks tab (and it does not
help) is on the Page Setup Tab>?ParagraphDialogue Box>to the right is a
Line and Page Breaks Tab on that dialogue box.

I tried using Keep With Next on that pulldown and it does not seem to
help. There is a small Type Text two wors on the left of each page now and
it has no left click functionality and the right click says "edit footer"
and when you click it what it shows is a footer sign in blue at the
bottom of each page on the left and a "same as previous" sign on the
lower right hand corner which does nothing for me.

The boxes you can check on the Page Breaks tab in the Paragraph Dialogue
box on the ribbon's Page Layout tab are:

Window Orphan Control
Keep With Next
Keep Lines Together
Page Break Before

None of them help.

There is nothing resembling page break on the Page Setup dialogue box.
This is really holding up my doc. I'm going to try this on "Front
Matter" because what I'm trying to do is exactly make Front Matter with
Roman Numerals and the second section with regular page numbers. When I
first started I had the Roman Numerals going on and now I can't seem to
get them back.

http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/front_matter_2007.htm

If that link doesn't help me, then I'm going to uninstall this puppy
and reinstall 32 bit Office 2010 and if that doesn't help, I'll uninstall
and reinstall ole Office 2007. While I love to have and try the newest
Office and Windows, my document has a dealine and it's far more important
than pretending to be a public Beta tester with the totally useless and
ineffective Smile Frown Feedback where the user has no idea what the
teams are doing to fix a bug. I've been subbing direct email to the team
member involved for smile frown. Because if they want a log or
screenshots, that's the only real way to provide them and see what they
are thinking on the Redmond campus end of Word or Office.

Thanks--I am really appreciative of your time. I'm not often stumped with
MSFT software, but I will openly admit to not understanding the terms on
many Word dialogue boxes and I can't see much effort on the part of all
the Word teams at Redmond to define them. I really appreciate your
definitions. Let's put it this way. Nothing I've learned so far in life
has made me able to guess what those definitions meant until you told me
and a lot of the dialogue box terms were present in Word 2000 and Word
2002 and they have not changed in about ten years as you know. What also
hasn't changed is the gals and guys on the usability team at Redmond
haven't lifted a finger to define those terms that they blithly and
insouciantly impose on Word.

Maybe there is some Word MVP glossary of all these non-intuitive terms
somewhere, because even when you pull out a shelf full of Word 2007 books
(and I have them in spades) they only do a couple pages or so on Page
Breaks and Numbering. They do a ton of pages on other matters and I don't
see a lot of these dialogue box terms defined.

Again the only place where I have a page breaks tab is in the Paragraph
Dialogue box on the Page Formatting Tab in 2010 and it has just those
terms you defined for me. I've been trying all of them and they produced
the results I wrote above here.

And for a whole day, I have not been able to get back even the Roman
Numerals in the Front Matter section. The [type text] at the bottom of
the left hand page drives me nuts. the header and footer tabs now at the
bottom of the page drive me equally nuts.

Okay I realize in re-reading you pasted from the Word 2003 help. But trust
me, the public Beta that they've had out now for 6 months or so, has help
links that have no content at all. And they've already made another RTM
build they released to Beta testers about two weeks ago, and probably TAP
testers who knows how long ago. I wasn't one of either group so if your
nice link doesn't do it for me, I'm going through the time consuming
uninstall of my 64 bit Office 2010 "public beta", reinstalling a 32 bit
one and see if it helps, and if that doesn't work I'll install my Office
2007 RTM. Hell at this point, I'd install the first Office build in the
history of MSFT if I could just get on with page numbering the front
matter and the second section of my document.

And there are penalties for kidnapping legal secretaries at 11PM at night
(the ones you don't know anyway :>).

Thanks much,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

You won't be able to leave the front matter blank unless you insert a
section break between the front matter and the rest, and since you don't
seem to have been able to figure out how to do even that, I don't have much
hope for you! But you certainly don't need to reinstall Office (which won't
make any difference in what you're seeing). What you do need is to gain a
basic understanding of how headers and footers work and how page numbering
works. And if you don't know how to align text in a paragraph, then you
probably need to learn that as well.

I really don't understand why you're using beta software for what is
apparently an important project, anyway.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
H

Happy Trails

The accepted practice is to put the newsgroups to whicy you want to post
into the header of a single post.
What might the "accepted practice" be if for example, you realize
after your initial post in one group that perhaps that group might not
have been the exact correct one, or maybe you are getting no immediate
response and wish to cast your net a little wider?

Following your advice would possibly mean reposting the question again
in the initial group(s), which is equally bothersome.

So what's your MVP/net-nanny advice on this, DOUG?
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

If the page number is on the left, you can easily center it just by pressing
Ctrl+E (as I pointed out once before).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

You were told many messages ago to use the Next Page section break; at the
same time, you were told to delete the page break before inserting the
section break. Of course you will get a blank page if you use both!

As for figuring out which break to use, Word spells out what each one does:
for Next Page it says, "Insert a section break and start the new section on
the next page." It is equally clear about all the others.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
C

Chad Harris

Undo is your friend (especially when you unintentionally delete the entire
document). You can find and delete all manual page breaks by searching for
^m and replacing with nothing, section breaks by replacing ^b with
nothing.

If you don't intend to have anything on the page except a page number,
there are Top of Page and Bottom of Page building blocks that will
position numbers accordingly (Plain Number 1 is left, Plain Number 2 is
center, and Plain Number 3 is right). Using these unfortunately results in
an extra, empty paragraph in the header/footer.

But you were instructed to use Current Position: Plain Number, which gives
you a simple PAGE field, left-aligned, in the default header/footer
paragraph. You can then position it using ordinary paragraph formatting.

If you want to omit page numbers from a given section, then it is a good
idea to insert your section break(s) and break links as required before
inserting the page number. If you just intend to change the format of the
page number (from arabic to roman), without changing the position of the
number, then it doesn't matter whether you insert it before or after
inserting the break.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Suzanne--

"Undo is your friend (especially when you unintentionally delete the entire
document). You can find and delete all manual page breaks by searching for
^m and replacing with nothing, section breaks by replacing ^b with
nothing."

Great information above, which would have taken me a while down the road,
and some reading to uncover.

I won't have any pages with only the page number in this doc.

"But you were instructed to use Current Position: Plain Number, which gives
you a simple PAGE field, left-aligned, in the default header/footer
paragraph. You can then position it using ordinary paragraph formatting."

I missed the above instruction at first, but understood it this morning.
and thanks for it.

Thanks for clarifying in the last paragraph as to the order of doing
things.

An experience like this will just make me dig in, until I can get it done
reasonably well.

CH
 
D

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

Think before you post.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP, originally posted via msnews.microsoft.com
 
C

Chad Harris

Janine said:
Hi Chad Harris,

You do not need to reinstall. Delete the default autocorrect entry
i = I
which is causing your roman numeral to turn into an capital I as you have
turned on 'replace as you type'.

That will solve your typing the lowercase i and it turning into capital I.
I haven't read the whole thread so hope this helps.

These default autocorrect entries come with 2003, 2007 and 2010 .

In 2010 - Go to File > Options > Proofing > Autocorrect Options (click)
In the box on left type: i
which should bring up the entry i = I
when the entry shows click on Delete.

Hope that helps.
Janine
Janine--

Thanks. That sure did the trick. Now I can type I, ii, iii in this
newsgroup box all day. If only I could make it happen in Word on my front
matter. After struggling for days, I've finally got the second section of
my doc going 1, 2, 3 by taking the 5 year olds approach to Word that MSFT's
ad agency's Little Kylie would use. By the way those cute "Little Kylie"
ads for Windows 7 were actually written by Microsoft's agency Crispin Porter
+ Bogusky on a Mac Book Pro but Ballmer accepted Little Kylie from Orange,
California anyway.

That approach is to simply start my new section in a new document and number
the pages avoiding the Page Breaks, Headers and Footers as if they were a
can full of Cobra snakes.

Little Kylie would be proud that I've managed to number the second section
but she would no doubt put on a frownie face in the send a smile send a
frown tradition that I backed off numbering the front matter.

Thanks,

CH










CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
You won't be able to leave the front matter blank unless you insert a
section break between the front matter and the rest, and since you don't
seem to have been able to figure out how to do even that, I don't have
much hope for you! But you certainly don't need to reinstall Office (which
won't make any difference in what you're seeing). What you do need is to
gain a basic understanding of how headers and footers work and how page
numbering works. And if you don't know how to align text in a paragraph,
then you probably need to learn that as well.

I really don't understand why you're using beta software for what is
apparently an important project, anyway.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
Suzanne--

1) I agree with your overall concept--that I should gain a basic
understanding of headers and footers and page breaks and I will, but it
won't be in time to get this document out. I've stayed up nearly two full
nights until 5AM trying. And I have read every article you've given me and
I am paying attention to every message you've left.

I wouldn't argue with your concept that there is no hope for me either.
That's probably a metaphysical truth.

Hope and luck--make good campaign slogans when you're running against
idiots who are bat___ crazy who write childish stuff on the palm of their
hands for stupid people who make her a multimillionaire. But hope and luck
aren't part of my life here with Word. I didn't say "hope and change"
because there sure isn't any change.

2) I'm not (Send a Smile!) having problems aligning text in a paragraph or
anywhere. That I can do easily. It's just the numbers and the page breaks
that vex me and I'll be honest and admit that I find many of the descriptive
terms in the Word dialogue boxes non-intuitive and I give it an "F" for
usability in that vein. I will eventually get them all down just for spite
when I have the time to dig into my library and the Web and the great Word
MVP resources.

3) I can sure set up my front matter without numbers and page breaks by
putting it in a new document and putting the second section in a new
document and simply numbering it 1,2 3 etc, and perhaps I can do the same to
the front matter in a separate document numbering it i, ii, iii, etc., so I
don't know what you mean there. I think...

4) Thus I have learned Suzanne what Sinofsky and Balmer must be calling the
"Little Kylie approach to page numbering in Word." "Happy Windows 7 and
dumb but happier Word."

The "Little Kylie approach" that I haven't seen from the Word MVPs to the
vexing page break situation is to say the hell with Roman numeral numbering
or any numbering for the front matter--just let it go naked without any
numbering and hope the reader will have the sense to turn the page and
mentally deduce "duh it's the next page." I'm not counting on that
considering what I know about some of the future readers, however. (Good
help is hard to find on the bench often). That is unless I make a separate
document for the front matter which I might do since I can't list the table
of cases until I cite them in the 2nd part anyway and I can't do a table
of contents until I name and divide conceptually the 2nd and main part of
the document. Once I write it I'll name it's parts and then I can put them
in the front matter.

Then with a new document I was able to put the second section of my doc on
the right track by simply going to Insert>Page numbers and then of course
they are default over on the left so you have to figure out where to find
the page number position dialogue box, hidden so well by the usability group
that I can't find it now to say where it was, but it got the number in the
center where I want it.

If front matter lets me number i, ii, iii, then like I have just done to a
new doc for the "2nd part," 1, 2, 3 sitting nicely in the center of the
page, then great. If not, I'll know Little Kylie would either be happy or
disgusted with my lack of sophistication.

You are absolutely the best with your terrific patience. I still have the
original document to try to apply every one of your tips including to stay
away from that dialogue box and of course I'm going to keep trying.

I uninstalled Word because I thought that 64 bit Word was giving me problems
not showing all the dialogue boxes and buttons --Ted Way from the Office
team has tried to urge people not to install 64 bit but I had it installed
for speed on 64 bit Win 7.

Now I can't activate it because of some glitch that many people are
experiencing, and I can't uninstall it from add remove because of a glitch
until I get permission for 4 registry keys. I know about this because I
helped a bunch of people on the Beta group who couldn't get it installed
because of the same registry permissions glitch. So I'll have to either
manually uninstall Office which is a pain but I won't be saving any of those
reg keys, subkeys or values which really ads to the time, or I can search
for those reg keys which can only be found when the right error dialogue
box comes up and suggests where they are.

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/office2010/thread/db72616a-2bc2-4f75-addb-3de8bb62b8dc

I mean this with all respect due to anyone, but I never have a problem
making a beta in Windows or Office production material no matter how early
the build, particularly not with Windows. I'm used to Windows always having
little glitches--it's intrinsic to Windows, and I can usually solve those
fast. But I sure met my waterloo with page breaks and page numbering. I
had never tried to do different numbers.

As to this Office 2010, I helped early on on the Technet Beta group with a
lot of people who couldn't get it installed because they had to get registry
key permissions for obscure registry keys most people never encounter even
regular reg hackers.

There also is the problem for a good number of people that every time they
open up an Office program, Word or whichever, a setup dialogue box will run
for 5 minutes and the workaround to that I discovered was simply to go to
C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\Office 14 and right click winword.exe or
outlook.exe >run as admin and the splash screen will pop right up. I hope
they get those fixed by RTM, but I give them 50-50 to do so, and it won't
matter to me but it will matter to a lot of customer end users and probably
to Little Kylie and her family--unless they are MSFTies and can get some
quick help from one of the buildings on their campus.

Your fantastic patience is highly valued and appreciated.

Best,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Janine said:
Hi Chad Harris

To access Next Page (section break) do as follows in 2010:

On ribbon go to tab
Page Layout Tab > Breaks (dropdown menu) Section Next Page (select).

Janine

Janine--

That helps because I never could figure out which of the breaks to choose
on that drop down menu. That's yet another set of terms that it would be
great if the Word team would define. I still want to make a go of numbering
my front matter. But in that original doc I've tried to wrestle with I now
have 53 pages where there should be about 10-12 including the front matter
because obviously I've made so many ill-conceived page breaks. They look
like blank pages, and I read the blank page article on Suzanne Barnhill's
website where she warns that some blank pages aren't blank pages. But I know
that all of mine are from page breaks because I've used other views to prove
that.

So I would like because I've tried all night to be able to delete those
pages. When I double click in between the page breaks, it reverts the
document to a screwy looking thing with text and lines all over the place
and those llines represent all the page breaks I put into the document
trying repeatedly to change the numbers and to get the Roman numerals for
the front matter into sequence.

I've googled for directions or should I say binged for directions on how to
"delete" pages and I've come up empty because double clicking in between
them converts the doc to lines where there are about 40 some odd page breaks
I wish I hadn't made. It's a shame there isn't a place to delete all page
breaks and start over in that doc.

There must be a way.

Thanks much,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

Undo is your friend (especially when you unintentionally delete the entire
document). You can find and delete all manual page breaks by searching for
^m and replacing with nothing, section breaks by replacing ^b with nothing.

If you don't intend to have anything on the page except a page number, there
are Top of Page and Bottom of Page building blocks that will position
numbers accordingly (Plain Number 1 is left, Plain Number 2 is center, and
Plain Number 3 is right). Using these unfortunately results in an extra,
empty paragraph in the header/footer.

But you were instructed to use Current Position: Plain Number, which gives
you a simple PAGE field, left-aligned, in the default header/footer
paragraph. You can then position it using ordinary paragraph formatting.

If you want to omit page numbers from a given section, then it is a good
idea to insert your section break(s) and break links as required before
inserting the page number. If you just intend to change the format of the
page number (from arabic to roman), without changing the position of the
number, then it doesn't matter whether you insert it before or after
inserting the break.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
D

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

OK. Google before you post.

I believe that I do understand the question.

--
Hope this helps,

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

Please reply only to the newsgroups unless you wish to obtain my services on
a paid professional basis.
 
H

Happy Trails

OK. Google before you post.

I believe that I do understand the question.
So why do you fail to attempt to answer it?

I am asking what you think might be the correct way to add to an
original post that you realize, after you have gained insight from
your initial post, that it could be broadened to reach a more
responsive audience.

Do you have any useful suggestion, or does your somewhat useless "Do
not cross-post!" suggestion represent the totality of your wisdom on
the topic?

You have on many occasions offered this completely negative response
and added no suggestion whatsoever on how to netiquettely accomplish
the poster's goal which is to broaden the audience for his original
question.

Does my repetition above help you to understand better the problem you
failed to address?
 
C

Chad Harris

You were told many messages ago to use the Next Page section break; at the
same time, you were told to delete the page break before inserting the
section break. Of course you will get a blank page if you use both!

As for figuring out which break to use, Word spells out what each one
does: for Next Page it says, "Insert a section break and start the new
section on the next page." It is equally clear about all the others.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Suzanne--

Of course you are correct.

I don't make any excuses for missing anything I was told except exhaustion.
Thanks for the Ctrl + E--centers the page numbers. But I know I found a
button that gives you a dialogue box to position numbers which I can't find
at the moment. I don't know why they don't incorporate positioning numbers
into the Format Page Numbers dialogue box.

I have used the Show/Hide button to show all my page and section breaks that
I incorrectly put in trying to get the Roman numbers in front matter and
Arabic numbers in the second section or middle matter if it becomes that.

I had been happily highlighting them and hitting the delete key to get all
the section breaks to start over--I don't know if there is a way to get rid
of them all at once, and on the last one it deleted my document--but the
front matter is very little and I can do it again right, and I have the
second portion that I can't afford to lose pasted into a new document so
it's saved even if I can't retrieve the whole document. How that last
delete got rid of the document I don't know.

You are absolutely correct--Word does define or distinguish the type breaks
but for some of us those definitions are less than clear as to what they'll
actually do on the page. And it takes some familiarity or reading to context
a lot of the commands in the dialogue boxes IMHO.

Right now on the Page Layout Tab Breaks became temporaily ghosted. Maybe
it's because I have the Show Hide button clicked. I also noticed that if
you click the "paragraph button" or use Ctrl+ * you get all the changes you
made displayed including page and section breaks so you can delete them, but
if you click below it at the lower right hand corner it simply displays the
paragraph dialogue box. I missed that until now.

Also there is a page break button on the Insert tab that I think just makes
a break on the fly because if you click it I don't see a choice of type of
breaks and possibly clicking that at times put in all those unwanted page
breaks I am now deleting. Both of them are now ghosted and I don't
understand the difference between the two breaks buttons on the two tabs
(Insert tab and Page Layout tab) and what makes them become ghosted and
unghosted.

***Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to first make the
section break, and then go back and insert the numbers in each of the
sections--could that have created big problems for me?***

Thanks,

CH
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

If you don't intend to have anything on the page except a page number,

By this I meant, "If you don't intend to have anything in the header/footer
except a page number..." That is, those building blocks are less useful (or
at least harder to use), if you intend to put other content in the header (a
running head with the chapter title, for example).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
C

Chad Harris

Suzanne S. Barnhill said:
By this I meant, "If you don't intend to have anything in the
header/footer except a page number..." That is, those building blocks are
less useful (or at least harder to use), if you intend to put other
content in the header (a running head with the chapter title, for
example).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Suzanne--


Got it. Thanks very much for tips and explanations.

CH
 

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