Project is lying to me!

[Dan McCarty]

I have a serious problem with Project. I've tried this on two
different PC's, both running Win2K and Project 2003. Either I don't
understand how it works or Project is just flat-out lying to me about
tasks. Here are some steps to easily reproduce this problem:

1. Start a new project file
2. Create a new task. Mine is called "test task."
3. Set the duration to 5d. Set the resource to "Bob."
4. Make sure that the tasks is set to 5d. Go to View...Task Usage to
see that Bob is working five 8-hour days.
5. Go back to the Gantt chart view and double click the task. In the
Resources tab, add Mary and set both Bob and Mary's units to 50%.
Click OK.
6. Now notice that instead of taking the same time to finish the task
(2 people at 50% vs. 1 at 100%), Project now says that the task will
take 6.67 days. In the Task Usage screen, Bob has been given twice as
much work as Mary!

Even worse, reducing the number of days back to 5 assigns Bob 20 hours
on the task and leaves Mary with just 13.33. So while Project is
reporting on the Gantt chart that it's a 40-hour task, only 33.3 hours
are being allocated to it!

So what's going on here?

 

[JackD]

If you want the task to keep it's duration constant, set it to be "fixed
duration".
Order is important as well as task type and effort driven setting. The
relationship between Duration, Units and Work is defined as D = W x U. If
you change one, one of the other two has to change. Setting the task type
correctly will fix one of the quantities and then the remaining two will
work as expected. If you aren't aware of task type and you start doing
things in the wrong order it is possible to get into the situation you are
in where you start chasing around the circle trying to get things to work
the way you want. After you have used project for a while this does not
occur as frequently and in fact I find it hard to get project to behave like
this.

If you want to avoid it, simply go to the task usage or resource usage view
and enter the work directly.

I'd explain all about the different task types and the effect of marking a
task as effort driven, but the best way to learn is to experiment.

 

[Gérard Ducouret]

Hi Jack,
Take care : a keyboard trap I guess :
The relationship between Duration, Units and Work is defined as D = W / U.
;-)

Gérard

 

[Project Slave]

After some experimentation, I have made the default task type for my project
to be fixed duration. That is easier to 'control' than the the other two
types. FYI.

 

[Dan McCarty]

If you want the task to keep it's duration constant, set it to be "fixed
duration".
Order is important as well as task type and effort driven setting. The
relationship between Duration, Units and Work is defined as D = W x

U.

That still doesn't explain why if I take a task that was assigned to
someone at 100% and break it into 2 people at 50%, Project doesn't
allocate the work equally. In my above example, Project makes Bob work
26.67 hours while only allocating 13.33 hours for Mary. What gives?

And worse, Project changes the duration to 6.67 days. On what
planet does 40 hours = 6.67 days?! Not on this one. That doesn't even
fit into any formula of D's, W's and U's.

-Dan.

 

[davegb]

I don't have the time to re-create what you did, Dan. I believe it did
exactly what you say it did, and will again. You still don't understand
how Project assigns resources to tasks, and how it allocates the hours.
As has been mentioned above, you have to understand the three different
types of tasks, and the other setting, "Effort Driven". There are good
write ups on these in most good manuals (meaning, not all manuals) and
I believe on the MVP website. If you sit down and play with these
settings for a little while, do it a few times, it will begin to make
sense. Is it the way I would have done it if I had designed Project?
No. But since I didn't create it, I need to understand the way it is.
As for using Fixed Duration as the default, I don't do that. Fixed
Duration is the easiest to predict what it will do, but gives me the
wrong results in most cases when I start assigning resources to tasks
in the workplace. I find I usually start with Fixed Units (the
default-default setting), then after resources are assigned, change
over to Fixed Duration when I need to make changes. Unless
circumstances dictate otherwise. Knowing how to do that comes with
experience with working with them. And one of the things you learn by
working with it is that it's order dependent.
As to your specific question about how 40 hours can = 6.67 days. Are
you saying that there's no way you can imagine 2 people working on the
same task for a total of 40 hours that could take 6.67 days? I can
think of an infinite number of combinations that would result that way.
Project just calculates one of those possibilities. It isn't intuitive,
that's all. But then, a lot of things about Scheduling and Project
Management aren't intuitive to me. It's a very zen experience!

 

[JulieD]

Hi Dan

i've recreated what you did and it did exactly what you described ... but
then when i change resource assignments on tasks - unless i'm simply
replacing and existing resource (1 or 1 swop) or adding a resource to get
the work done faster, i always take the assigned resources OFF the task -
press OK and then put the resources on as i now want them.

so in your scenario when i decided i wanted bill & mary to split the work, i
would double click on the task, take off bill, press OK, double click again
and put both bill & mary on at 50% ... which gives the desired results.

It might take half a minute longer but i've learned that for me this is the
best way to get the results i expect from project. (the other thing i
always try and do where possible is only ever assign 1 resource per task -
unless it's a meeting, of course) ... again this minimises "odd" behaviour.

hope this helps somewhat

cheers
JulieD

 

[Gérard Ducouret]

Dan,
<<That still doesn't explain why ...>>
Of course it explain why. That just the way you process which is bad. Read
Jack explanation and have a look at the Task Usage view.
You'll see that the 2 assignments are not parallel.
Try another way:
Create a task: Duration = 10d and Work = 10d (10 person-days) insert the
Work column for that.
Set the Task Type to Fixed Work in the Advanced tab of the Task information
dialog
Select this task, Click the Assign Resource button
Select the first resource, unit 50%, click Assign (the Duration jumps to 20
days)
Select the second resource, unit 50%, click Assign (The Duration comes back
to 10 days)

Try all the other ways of doing assignments....

Good luck,

Gérard

 

[Gérard Ducouret]

Hi,
In the real world, "Fixed Duration" logique is very rare.

Gérard

 

[Mike Glen]

Hi Dan,

Welcome to this Microsoft Project newsgroup

You might like to have a look at my series on Microsoft Project in the
TechTrax ezine, particularly #10 – Multiple Resource Assignments, at this
site: http://tinyurl.com/2xbhc or this:
http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMFrame.asp?CMD=ArticleSearch&AUTH=23
(Perhaps you'd care to rate the article before leaving the site,
Thanks.)

FAQs, companion products and other useful Project information can be seen at
this web address: <http://www.mvps.org/project/>

Hope this helps - please let us know how you get on

Mike Glen
MS Project MVP

 

[Steve House [MVP]]

Remember duration is the number of defined working time units between when
work is first performed on a task and when it ends. Whether those working
time units actually have work taking place during them or not or how MUCH
work is taking place during each moment, is irrelevant.

A simple example of how 40 hours work for 2 resources can give a 6.67 day
duration. Task X has Bill and Mary assigned @ 50% and 20 hours work each.
The percentage reflects the amount of duration time that is converted to
useful work output so 20 hours of work at 50% requires 40 working hours of
time to produce. Bill starts work Mon 8am and finishes 20 hours of work at
5pm Friday, 40 duration hours later. Mary joins him Tuesday at 2:30 pm,
continues on her own after he leaves on Friday and finishes her 20 hours the
following Tuesday at 2:30pm, also 40 duration hours later. Total work
performed between the two is 40 hours, total duration to do that work, 6.67
days (each minute where each resource's 40 hours overlap counts as 1
duration minute, not 2).

 

[Dan McCarty]

You still don't understand
how Project assigns resources to tasks, and how it allocates the hours.
As has been mentioned above, you have to understand the three different
types of tasks, and the other setting, "Effort Driven".

Bah, I would hope that after reading through help screens for two
days I would understand it enough. The problem isn't that I don't
understand it, but in Project's lack of consistency and terrible
interface. Basically--and I've learned all of this the hard way--I
understand that the 3 task types are really just a way to tell Project
which of the _other_two_ variables in the D-W-U equation that you want
to change, but not always.

And I wish it were that easy. Certain options can turn on whether
other variables, like percent complete, actual work, etc., are
automatically updated. And when automatic leveling is enabled these
values can change "behind your back" any time the slightest thing
changes. Case in point: I changed a small task at the bottom of the
task list to find that my resource in a large task group above it had
been completely overallocated.

And there are other frustrations, too. Canceling in the middle of a
leveling doesn't really cancel it. Making a change that affects
leveling and undoing the change doesn't undo the leveling. (Undo is
nearly worthless in this app.)

There are good
write ups on these in most good manuals (meaning, not all manuals) and
I believe on the MVP website.

I believe you. And I know that that I don't understand this
software as well as I could. But I do develop software for a living; I
can tell pretty much how well a piece of software was written after
using it for a little while. My conclusion: Project is a piece of crap
with pretty toolbars. It's crawling with a decade worth of feature
creep. The fundamental routines are good but the majority of the app
could stand a complete rewrite. It's like a Hollywood girl: it has all
the right parts, and the surgeons have done a great job of making each
part look great, but when taken together as a whole it's really shallow
and just doesn't work right.

MS has had 4 or 5 versions to get this piece of software (aka POS)
right. Instead of focusing on the core parts, like usability and
consistency, they made sure that the fluff like toolbars and the office
ASSistant made it in. Then again, that's par for the course for them,
so why am I complaining?

It's a very zen experience!

Change "zen" to "zero" and you've got it.

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Hi,

I have to restate this every three days or so, but people keep claiming that
(Quote)

And when automatic leveling is enabled these

values can change "behind your back" any time the slightest thing
changes.

Leveling doesn't "change" any value, definitely not Work or assignment
units.
IT DOES NOT. Not before your eyes, not behind your back.
All it does is postpone work.

HTH

 

[Dan McCarty]

Leveling doesn't "change" any value, definitely not Work or assignment
units.
IT DOES NOT. Not before your eyes, not behind your back.
All it does is postpone work.

Ha! Perhaps you'd care to explain how some of my tasks' resources can
end up looking like "Dan[237%]"?! I certainly didn't input it that
way. And how even though the task is entered in "Fixed Work" the
amount of work can sometimes change...

This is no joke. Here is an actual task that Project has retroactively
leveled for me, even though it was already finished:
Task: 153
Task name: PB: Configure SDK bug from v5 uninstall
Duration: 0.84 days?
Work: 2 days
Start date: Tue 11/30/04
End date: Tue 11/30/04
% Complete: 100%
Resource names: Dan[237%]
(Task contraints: none)

These are the relevant settings:
Tools, Options:
- New tasks: Start on project start date
- Default task type: Fixed work
- Split in-progress tasks: YES
- Calculation mode: Automatic
Tools, Leveling:
- Leveling calculations: Manual
- Leveling order: Priority, Standard
- Leveling can adjust individual assignments: YES
- Leveling can create splits: YES

(This is Project 2K3, BTW.)

So in theory, I believe you. (The same way that in theory, leveling
doesn't change work or assignment. ;-)

p.s. FWIW, I'm not as frustrated about this anymore. It's kind of
like how after you've discovered that the "prize-winning" dog that you
bought only has one leg, you don't expect as much out of him anymore.

 

[JackD]

I know that you are correct Jan, but sometimes it really does feel like
project is changing things and laughing behind your back.
At least until you get used to it. Then you learn it doesn't have a sense of
humor.

-Jack

 

[Dan McCarty]

Try another way:
Create a task: Duration = 10d and Work = 10d (10 person-days) insert the
Work column for that.

[...]

Try all the other ways of doing assignments....

I tried your example and it worked just like you said it would. I
don't doubt that in a project with exactly 1 task everything will work
just fine. But my project doesn't have 1 task, it has 175 tasks.
Things start to get a little more complicated...

Please see my reply to Jan De Messemaeker for specifics. Thanks for
all your help so far.

-Dan.

 

[Steve House [MVP]]

FYI - a couple of things.

Task Type: When editing the resource assignments after makeing the initial
assignment, one can declare any arbitrary term in the equation W=D*U to be
the constant, a second term is then chosen as the independent variable which
is being edited, and MSP will recalculate the third term, the dependent
variable. A task type of "Fixed XX" declares the constant.

Effort Driven: When adding a resource, should the work be pro-rated between
the members of the group or should it be replicated? Take a 40 man-hour
task with 1 resource assigned and then add a 2nd individual. If the total
work should become 80 man-hours, 40 hours going to each individual, the task
is non-effort driven. If the total work should remain at 40 man-hours with
20 distributed to each individual, the task is effort driven.

Assignment Percentage: The percentage of the time the resource spends on
the task that is converted to useful work output. 8 hours duration assigned
at 50% results in the output equivalent to what would be achieved with 4
hours full time effort.

Project is very consistent in its behavior. I've been using it and teaching
it for over a decade and I've found it to be 100% consistent - do XX and YY
always follows. Now you might be expecting ZZ but that's a different issue
entirely. The only inconsistencies I've seen have been due to inconsistency
of expectations between the user's chair and the keyboard.

The closest thing you can find to a detailed explanation of WHY Project
behaves the way it does is the PMBOK from the Project Management Institute.
If your idea of effective project management practices is in synch with
PMI's methodology and you understand how MSP models it you're going to be
happy with MSP. If you feel a different methodology is better, you may not
be so happy with it.

It's not a software issue you're dealing with. It's seems its the way
Project implements the basic project scheduling methodology that you are
struggling with. A favourite question of my metaphysics prof many years ago
was "Why does a triangle have three sides?" The answer was "God made it
that way." Well, Project is 100% consistent once you understand that it
behaves the way it behaves because that's just what it does. If you want it
to behave someway other than that, if you want the triangle to have four
sides, you'll be dissappointed.

 

[Steve House [MVP]]

I don't doubt that you might be finding "Dan [237%]" on a task unexpectedly.
But it's *not* resource leveling that's doing it. Something else is
responsible, though saying just what would require seeing just what you
started with before editing and exactly what you changed. It's not enough
to know where it ended up - what was it before you did whatever you did, and
what did you do to trigger the change?

Fixed Work, Fixed Units, or Fixed Duration doesn't mean that the specified
term is engraved in granite and will never change under any circumstances
nor does making something "fixed XX" mean that XX can't be edited. It only
means that the designated item is the constant term in the linear equation
W=D*U when doing something that changes one of the terms in the resource
assigments.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Leveling doesn't "change" any value, definitely not Work or assignment
units.
IT DOES NOT. Not before your eyes, not behind your back.
All it does is postpone work.

Ha! Perhaps you'd care to explain how some of my tasks' resources can
end up looking like "Dan[237%]"?! I certainly didn't input it that
way. And how even though the task is entered in "Fixed Work" the
amount of work can sometimes change...

This is no joke. Here is an actual task that Project has retroactively
leveled for me, even though it was already finished:
Task: 153
Task name: PB: Configure SDK bug from v5 uninstall
Duration: 0.84 days?
Work: 2 days
Start date: Tue 11/30/04
End date: Tue 11/30/04
% Complete: 100%
Resource names: Dan[237%]
(Task contraints: none)

These are the relevant settings:
Tools, Options:
- New tasks: Start on project start date
- Default task type: Fixed work
- Split in-progress tasks: YES
- Calculation mode: Automatic
Tools, Leveling:
- Leveling calculations: Manual
- Leveling order: Priority, Standard
- Leveling can adjust individual assignments: YES
- Leveling can create splits: YES

(This is Project 2K3, BTW.)

So in theory, I believe you. (The same way that in theory, leveling
doesn't change work or assignment. ;-)

p.s. FWIW, I'm not as frustrated about this anymore. It's kind of
like how after you've discovered that the "prize-winning" dog that you
bought only has one leg, you don't expect as much out of him anymore.

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

What did you input then?

--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620

Leveling doesn't "change" any value, definitely not Work or assignment
units.
IT DOES NOT. Not before your eyes, not behind your back.
All it does is postpone work.

Ha! Perhaps you'd care to explain how some of my tasks' resources can
end up looking like "Dan[237%]"?! I certainly didn't input it that
way. And how even though the task is entered in "Fixed Work" the
amount of work can sometimes change...

This is no joke. Here is an actual task that Project has retroactively
leveled for me, even though it was already finished:
Task: 153
Task name: PB: Configure SDK bug from v5 uninstall
Duration: 0.84 days?
Work: 2 days
Start date: Tue 11/30/04
End date: Tue 11/30/04
% Complete: 100%
Resource names: Dan[237%]
(Task contraints: none)

These are the relevant settings:
Tools, Options:
- New tasks: Start on project start date
- Default task type: Fixed work
- Split in-progress tasks: YES
- Calculation mode: Automatic
Tools, Leveling:
- Leveling calculations: Manual
- Leveling order: Priority, Standard
- Leveling can adjust individual assignments: YES
- Leveling can create splits: YES

(This is Project 2K3, BTW.)

So in theory, I believe you. (The same way that in theory, leveling
doesn't change work or assignment. ;-)

p.s. FWIW, I'm not as frustrated about this anymore. It's kind of
like how after you've discovered that the "prize-winning" dog that you
bought only has one leg, you don't expect as much out of him anymore.

 

[Jan De Messemaeker]

Thanks Steve

--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620

I don't doubt that you might be finding "Dan [237%]" on a task unexpectedly.
But it's *not* resource leveling that's doing it. Something else is
responsible, though saying just what would require seeing just what you
started with before editing and exactly what you changed. It's not enough
to know where it ended up - what was it before you did whatever you did, and
what did you do to trigger the change?

Fixed Work, Fixed Units, or Fixed Duration doesn't mean that the specified
term is engraved in granite and will never change under any circumstances
nor does making something "fixed XX" mean that XX can't be edited. It only
means that the designated item is the constant term in the linear equation
W=D*U when doing something that changes one of the terms in the resource
assigments.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Leveling doesn't "change" any value, definitely not Work or assignment
units.
IT DOES NOT. Not before your eyes, not behind your back.
All it does is postpone work.

Ha! Perhaps you'd care to explain how some of my tasks' resources can
end up looking like "Dan[237%]"?! I certainly didn't input it that
way. And how even though the task is entered in "Fixed Work" the
amount of work can sometimes change...

This is no joke. Here is an actual task that Project has retroactively
leveled for me, even though it was already finished:
Task: 153
Task name: PB: Configure SDK bug from v5 uninstall
Duration: 0.84 days?
Work: 2 days
Start date: Tue 11/30/04
End date: Tue 11/30/04
% Complete: 100%
Resource names: Dan[237%]
(Task contraints: none)

These are the relevant settings:
Tools, Options:
- New tasks: Start on project start date
- Default task type: Fixed work
- Split in-progress tasks: YES
- Calculation mode: Automatic
Tools, Leveling:
- Leveling calculations: Manual
- Leveling order: Priority, Standard
- Leveling can adjust individual assignments: YES
- Leveling can create splits: YES

(This is Project 2K3, BTW.)

So in theory, I believe you. (The same way that in theory, leveling
doesn't change work or assignment. ;-)

p.s. FWIW, I'm not as frustrated about this anymore. It's kind of
like how after you've discovered that the "prize-winning" dog that you
bought only has one leg, you don't expect as much out of him anymore.