Entourage 2008 - still no hyperlink?

A

art689

Jolly, you take all this too seriously. The clear issue I was referring to, tongue in cheek, was the denial of a potentially useful feature to all customers because of the perception that the use of HTML can't be justified.. Why not just outlaw HTML?

The explanations do not satisfy me with regard to that issue. So that's the deal. As I said, move on.

Had both you and Adam quoted my entire post, the context may have seemed less severe than he took it. I'm moving on, if that's OK, and I repeat, it's not personal.
 
I

iThomasM

No, it is *YOU* who are forcing your HTML mail on the rest of us.

Entourage creates email in HTML as the default. So it's not really
me, but Entourage. Plus, I'm not sure about Entourage, but
Thunderbird would allow a message to be send in HTML and plain text.
That way, if someone on the receiving end didn't accept HTML messages,
they'd get the nice plain text version. Wouldn't we both win
then? :)
Plain text is the prefered method for emails by people who know the
internet. It is efficient, safe, virus-free, will be readable by any
mail client at the other end, doesn't impose your font, size, style
preferences on others, and has far smaller risk of being filtered out by
spam filters.

Perfered method buy people that know the internet? I think that's a
stretch as I don't remember getting a vote. But I agree that there
are some advantages. I think if people are sending crazy fonts and
sizes, then they are not in a business setting. Or they need some
best practices guidelines.
HTML messages are generally two to four times larger for the same
message than plain text equivalents. That means not only do they take
longer to transfer over the net, contributing to network congestion,
they also take up more disk space on your computer, on the recipient's
computer, and on every server they hit along the way!

Size is hardly an issue here. Unless someone is cramming HTML
messages full of funky junk, they are not that much larger. Ok 1k to
4k, that's bigger, but that's still 4k. Put one Microsoft Excel
document on there and it'll balloon up much faster. Have you ever
seen an Excel document go from 100k to 4MB? I see it way to often.
But that's another fun topic.
With HTML messages, the people who receive the messages have little or
no control over the text font, size, and style. They must read th
message in whatever font, size, and style *you* set when you created the
message. Plain Text messages, on the other hand, display in whatever
font, size, and style the recipient wishes.

Some email clients can override font settings on HTML messages. Not
sure about Entourage though. Or, as stated before, some you can
accept just the plain text version.
HTML email is dangerous because it may contain links to external sites
that will do malicious things. For instance, a spammer can include a
link to an image, but this link contains a tag as data. The server at
the other end will get that request when your *read your email* and
based on the tag, will be able to confirm that you've read the email and
not only flag your email address as active/good, but also use your IP
with geolocation servers to assign a location code so that they can then
sell your email address to other spammers along with your general
location. If everyone stopped sending HTML emails, everyone would block
it, and then spammers would be left with very few means to escape spam
filters because their messages would have to b simple and without tricks.

First off, if you are automatically loading images on every email you
get, then you are asking for trouble. By default, Entourage, or most
any email clients, don't load images unless you hit a button to allow
them to load. If you allow all images by default, or just clicking on
the 'allow' link no matter what, then it's your own fault for loading
images in a message that is from some Bob in the UK who says you won
like 4million dollars.

Second, if we all stopped using HTML emails, then spammers would find
another way. They are quite the resourceful bastards.
HTML email is wasteful, dangerous, and rude, IMO. It's just plain evil.

I'm not quite sure who sent you all this crap email, but you do make
some good points. I don't want to send ugly, font ridden, big ass
emails, I just want to do some bolding, add some links to keyword
phrases for reference and be happy. Plain text is very restricting
and Entourage already gives us most HTML features, and defaults to
HTML formatting, why can't they just add the ability to link?

Jr you are entitled to your own opinion and I do respect that. But
there are more than one side to this issue. I don't mean to argue,
just try to shed some light on things from my side of the issue. :)
 
G

Guest

Actually, JR, seems to me that the whole thing has gotten out of hand. Isn't the original complaint that hyperlinks cannot be "renamed" or something like that?

As to any comments I was making about the reasons such a feature was-was not available, was more in reaction to some of the language being used by posters farther up the line.

I actually use text, not HTML as a matter of routine, and when I use a hyperlink, in text or HTML, I use it as it is. In 20-20 hind sight, I think this entire thread should be taught in "internet communications" school as an example of how things spin out of control.

I am a member of many forums (mostly car related, you can imagine how passionate people are there!), and I always have to be so careful about how what I THINK I am saying will be perceived. As to this thread, this was my first exposure to this newsgroup, on the first night I had Entourage, and I sort of stepped into a Hornet's nest.

Save me the trouble of re-reading all this again. The real issue was about the presentation of a hyperlink, not any real difference in capability. Is that correct.

I get a hundred emails a day at work (in fact I am a, back from retirement, consultant about the legal consequences of certain documentation practices, of which email is one type), and my pet peeve is the emails that have stylized paper, sometimes to the point that the font is almost unreadable. But it isn't worth all this fuss and hurt feelings, and if I am right about the original dispute on this thread, it isn't either.

So, if I was too forceful with anyone, please accept my apology, and my assurance that it wasn't meant to sound that way when I wrote it.

I think I'll save this one for my next staff meeting about emails and mistaken meanings.

Regards, Art in baton Rouge,

PS.. I am generally VERY happy with Office 2008, Entourage in particular. I am sure I will have a couple questions, but the product so far seems to definitely live up to the good press it has received.

PS2-I forgot my password momentarily, so this will appear anonymous. it just gets better and better.
 
B

byrne.ted

Lots of discussion here about the weight and evil of html email.
Personally I've always used text-only mail for all the classic
reasons. However currently I find myself working in a PC environment
in which our office uses a standardized html signature, which includes
an in-line, colored link (i.e. "Click _here_ to receive our news").
Sometimes there is an image tagged on at the bottom of the signature
as well.

What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes the user doesn't have
the choice about text-versus-html mail as corporate themes are
imposed. I totally agree with a previous poster that the choice should
be the user's, not the developer's. Entourage has all the bells and
whistles to format the rest of a message in html, why not include the
inline hyperlink option as well ? Seems silly not too, really. Just
install the feature in an upgrade and be done with it.
 
D

Diane Ross

What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes the user doesn't have
the choice about text-versus-html mail as corporate themes are
imposed. I totally agree with a previous poster that the choice should
be the user's, not the developer's. Entourage has all the bells and
whistles to format the rest of a message in html, why not include the
inline hyperlink option as well ? Seems silly not too, really. Just
install the feature in an upgrade and be done with it.

You can use the templates MSFT provides to achieve this. See example:

<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq_topic/html_msg.html#sigs>

The link to " Personalize e-mail messages with signatures and backgrounds"
is currently broken.

<http://www.microsoft.com/mac/help.mspx?app=2>
 
S

Stan_Burman

Uh...no hyperlink capability in Entourage 2008? Perhaps I should just buy a new Grumman Gulfstream that has a 250 knot speed limiter installed.
 
P

Peter Connolly

When my company first moved its office from PC to Mac the single most asked question of our support staff over the first 3 weeks from the CEO down to the weekend receptionist was, "what's happened to the hypertext link I'm trying to put in my email. It's not working."

Each of these people had to be taken through the exercised of sending and email containing a link to themselves to convince them it was really working.

Every other email client and document authoring program I know of provides visual feedback to the user when they create a hyperlink including other Microsoft Mac products where the feature is used considerably less. That such a basic feature is missing from Entourage is simply inexcusable and a waste of considerable help desk time for business users.

PC
 
S

Sam Brown

Thanks Peter. I love hearing that from somebody else. That such a basic
feature is missing is inexcusable. I did my own tests sending but I
don't like the way the hyperlinks come out on the other end.

I took one of the MVP's advice and tried Mozilla Thunderbird. It seems
to work just as well as Entourage mail, has great IMAP support and I
like the way it displays newsgroup threads better.
 
T

tkx

* compose those e-mail messages which need to include hyperlinks in Word
2008, then click on File>Send to>Mail Recipient (as HTML). Word allows you
to create hyperlinks rather easily, and they will be preserved in Entourage.

That's why it's so surprising that Entourage doesn't support it - the fact that Word does, as does Excel and PowerPoint. If it's bad form to use hyperlinks in email, then the same should be true of other document types. I suppose what I'm saying is consistency would be nice.

I'll have to let my users know. One of the reasons we're going to Office 2008 is because we're going to Office 2007 on Windows, to leverage the enhanced editing features in Outlook 2007 when the full Office suite is installed instead of just Outlook on its own. The irony.
 
D

Doug13

* compose those e-mail messages which need to include hyperlinks in Word
2008, then click on File>Send to>Mail Recipient (as HTML). Word allows you
to create hyperlinks rather easily, and they will be preserved in Entourage.

This sounds helpful BUT...

Where does one find File>SendTo>MailRecipient(asHTML)?

The only option I find on the File menu is Fie>SendTo>MailRecipient(AsAttachment)
 
M

Michel Bintener

This sounds helpful BUT...

Where does one find File>SendTo>MailRecipient(asHTML)?

The only option I find on the File menu is
Fie>SendTo>MailRecipient(AsAttachment)

This option is only available if Entourage is set as your default e-mail
client. Once you've changed that setting, you may have to quit and restart
Word to see the menu entry.

--
Michel Bintener
Microsoft MVP
Office:mac (Entourage & Word)

*** Please always reply to the newsgroup. ***
 
S

sa.cs2cd

So I am trying to send an e-mail to a friend and said "Hey, let me use
my company address from Entourage". I am here trying to show a demo of
our new product to a friend which works directly from URL links, so
imagine the shock and horror I find when Im trying to turn "http://
xxxxxxxx.s3.amazonaws.com/iCMgr3-
EfquFkr99fr8BsjejLgGfnpw4zWCjbYguioKe6tIQ%2FThe+xxxx+xxxxx+-
+1xxxx.xxxxl.zip" into "CLICK HERE".

I'm looking in HELP and nothing on "Hyperlinks". I decided to Google
this issue and behold, this discussion. As a developer myself, I am
amazed that anyone representing the Microsoft Corporation with many
great things done in history vastly out weighing the criticisms, would
have such an acute God complex when it comes to Hyperlinks and HMTL
emails for that matter.

As far as I can remember, HTML and Hyperlinks are a part of the modern
e-mail toolset.

Listen, I don't care what preference you stuck up over experienced lab
engineers prefer for your "Text only" e-mail receipts. Don't play tech
god with my money and investment in Entourage. I am running a business
here and I need to hyperlink to colleagues, not a mass email or some
of these other issues you should be leaving to the spam companies/
virus ect.

How is "Hyperlinks" not on your "list of priorities". You clearly did
NOT add this as a ploy to keep Outlook (which is older than Entourage
2008) at an advantage, thus to boost revenue of Windows OS. It is the
year 2008 and not 1995, these nickel slick dime bag hustles no longer
invisible. If I can use FREE Gmail, and FREE Yahoo mail to send emails
with Hyperlinks, why am I paying $300 to send e-mails with training
wheels?

Stop outsourcing the development of your apps to India and keep the
staff in redmond in charge. I am thinking to myself now, why am I
bringing the plight of Office to my Mac anyways, I moved to Leopard
because I just could'nt stand that terrible "BLUP BLUP" pop up screen
when I hit CTR+ALT+DLT in Vista, so now what, your going to tell me
"No one likes CTR+ALT+DLT anyways, so a workaround is to restart your
computer".

Whoever let Entourage go gold with the embarrassment of no
Hyperlinking as found in FREE email offerings should be fired
immediately and escorted out the building with security.

Everyone is right and I am sad to feel this way but XP and Outlook was
the last great application to ever come from Microsoft.
 
W

William Smith

So I am trying to send an e-mail to a friend and said "Hey, let me use
my company address from Entourage". I am here trying to show a demo of
our new product to a friend which works directly from URL links, so
imagine the shock and horror I find when Im trying to turn "http://
xxxxxxxx.s3.amazonaws.com/iCMgr3-
EfquFkr99fr8BsjejLgGfnpw4zWCjbYguioKe6tIQ%2FThe+xxxx+xxxxx+-
+1xxxx.xxxxl.zip" into "CLICK HERE".

Your embarrassment is not Microsoft's fault. Based on your subject line
I believe you already knew hyperlinks were not available in earlier
versions of Entourage. Before demonstrating your product you should
probably test.
I'm looking in HELP and nothing on "Hyperlinks". I decided to Google
this issue and behold, this discussion. As a developer myself, I am
amazed that anyone representing the Microsoft Corporation with many
great things done in history vastly out weighing the criticisms, would
have such an acute God complex when it comes to Hyperlinks and HMTL
emails for that matter.

No hyperlinks in Entourage = God complex?
Listen, I don't care what preference you stuck up over experienced lab
engineers prefer for your "Text only" e-mail receipts. Don't play tech
god with my money and investment in Entourage. I am running a business
here and I need to hyperlink to colleagues, not a mass email or some
of these other issues you should be leaving to the spam companies/
virus ect.

I understand you're "disappointed" that Entourage does not compose
complex HTML messages but you need to understand that you're not talking
to Microsoft here. This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup where Entourage
users help other Entourage users. The value of this group, which is
*not* owned by Microsoft, gets diluted when the list of questions and
answers becomes polluted with rants.

You can take your issues, the rest of your diatribe and your name
calling directly to Microsoft by using the Help --> Send Feedback
mechanism in any Office application or by clicking this link
<http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx>.

--

bill

William M. Smith, Microsoft Interop MVP - Mac/Windows
Entourage Help Page <http://entourage.mvps.org/>
Entourage Help Blog <http://blog.entourage.mvps.org/>
 
G

Guest

Bravo! Very well said. This for me was so glaring, so stupid, so blatant.
Microsoft intentionally shafted Entourage. It can only be intentional, and
this had to be a conscious decision on the part of Microsoft to shaft
Macintosh users and ensure that Windows remains the only choice for
enterprise.

It is the "innovator's dilemma" - where a company gets so successful that
they stop innovating, and focus on protecting their assets. But this is
already proving to be Microsoft's undoing. Windows Mobile is much less than
it could have been because rather than create a great smartphone experience,
Microsoft focused on protecting and extending its Exchange asset and Office
assets. But they did such a poor job that OEMs were pre-loading third party
office document readers that did better than Microsoft's own solutions. So
they ended up doing a mediocre job at everything.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a "Microsoft basher", and I have no agenda
against the company. Apple, quite frankly can be just as annoying with some
of their antics around Quicktime, AAC encoding, etc. But this is too blatant
to ignore.

The fact that I paid for a top of the line office program and got a pile of
shit is quite annoying. Now I want to return the favor.

I've tested Entourage against exchange, outlook 2000, and outlook 2003 and
2007 clients, and have found that Entourage screws up in various ways with
each client, making it virtually incompatible with Outlook and Windows when
it comes to anything but ASCII email.

Not only that, but frankly Entourage is also a sub-standard news reader as
well. I tried thunderbird, and it actually groups news threads by thread, as
do some other open source news readers.

The whole program is sub-standard. And for the MVPs, yes, I've used the
feedback button.
 
G

Guest

Bill, I totally disagree that we're not talking to Microsoft here. Microsoft
made a huge effort several years ago to encourage and demand that SDE in the
company spend time in the newsgroups and create a better sense of community.

If you look in other news groups you'll see posts from Microsoft employees.
They have [MSFT] in their name, and their are internal rules for posting in
news groups, and most engineering groups demand that full time engineers
spend time in the groups, and it's part of their goal.

However, I've never seen an MS employee post in this group, because
obviously Microsoft could give a rat's ass about Office for MAC. In fact,
Office for MAC isn't even part of the Office group in MS... They're a
separate group. Go figure.
 
E

Ed Kimball

Bill, I totally disagree that we're not talking to Microsoft here. Microsoft
made a huge effort several years ago to encourage and demand that SDE in the
company spend time in the newsgroups and create a better sense of community.

If you look in other news groups you'll see posts from Microsoft employees.
They have [MSFT] in their name, and their are internal rules for posting in
news groups, and most engineering groups demand that full time engineers
spend time in the groups, and it's part of their goal.

However, I've never seen an MS employee post in this group, because
obviously Microsoft could give a rat's ass about Office for MAC. In fact,
Office for MAC isn't even part of the Office group in MS... They're a
separate group. Go figure.


Your embarrassment is not Microsoft's fault. Based on your subject line
I believe you already knew hyperlinks were not available in earlier
versions of Entourage. Before demonstrating your product you should
probably test.


No hyperlinks in Entourage = God complex?


I understand you're "disappointed" that Entourage does not compose
complex HTML messages but you need to understand that you're not talking
to Microsoft here. This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup where Entourage
users help other Entourage users. The value of this group, which is
*not* owned by Microsoft, gets diluted when the list of questions and
answers becomes polluted with rants.

You can take your issues, the rest of your diatribe and your name
calling directly to Microsoft by using the Help --> Send Feedback
mechanism in any Office application or by clicking this link
<http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx>.

I find myself in the unusual position of defending Microsoft. If you search
this newsgroup on From contains MSFT or Microsoft (or Chin -- I'm not sure
why searching for "microsoft" doesn't display her), you will see that they
do make occasional postings here and their postings are generally quite
helpful.

However, as Bill noted, this is not the place to complain about MS product
features or the lack of them. The Send Feedback command is the way to do
that.
 
D

Diane Ross

SPAM Catcher said:
However, I've never seen an MS employee post in this group

They do post, but most don't put the MSFT as part of their name. For an
example, do a search for Hui Nee Chin <[email protected]> and
you'll find she contributes regularly.
 
W

William Smith

SPAM said:
Bill, I totally disagree that we're not talking to Microsoft here. Microsoft
made a huge effort several years ago to encourage and demand that SDE in the
company spend time in the newsgroups and create a better sense of community.

The only reason I'm saying "you're not talking to Microsoft here" is
that this is a peer-to-peer newsgroup not a Microsoft-to-customer group.
This newsgroup is not an official feedback channel.

Yes, you'll see some folks posting here from Microsoft but lately that's
been because of the release of Office 2008. Before that little to none
was posted by any Microsoft employee in this group for months at a time.

Unless someone like Hui Nee, who has been a very frequent poster from
Microsoft, addresses a question then you have no guarantee it was seen
by someone from Microsoft. Microsoft's official channel for feedback is
their feedback mechanism on their website and that's where customer
complaints should be directed. That's where complaints will be counted.

--

bill

William M. Smith, Microsoft Interop MVP - Mac/Windows
Entourage Help Page <http://entourage.mvps.org/>
Entourage Help Blog <http://blog.entourage.mvps.org/>
 
G

Guest

Ed, let me preface this by saying that the work the MVPs do here is a
service to everyone.

But... with all due respect, what good is a public forum and community if
criticism and feature requests are supposed to be kept in a black box that
the community Microsoft hopes to foster can't see or share?

It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
 
D

Diane Ross

SPAM Catcher said:
But... with all due respect, what good is a public forum and community if
criticism and feature requests are supposed to be kept in a black box that
the community Microsoft hopes to foster can't see or share?

It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

There is a fine line between discussing a feature request and a flame war.
The MSFT newsgroups stay pretty much on topic so the noise level is pretty
low. MVPs stay busy enough answering questions that we can't do much on the
issues but suggest you send feedback. The squeeky wheel is feedback and not
the newsgroups.
 

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